• [00:01:07] Introduction
• [00:01:34] Prospecting profiles
• [00:02:32] Why the brain hates prospecting
• [00:03:03] Facing rejection
• [00:03:19] What to do
• [00:03:35] Scripts and misconceptions
• [00:04:17] Understanding what to do when you hear “no”
• [00:04:59] The hunting metaphor
• [00:05:37] Identifying the right company
• [00:05:58] The right argument at the right time
• [00:06:09] The prospector and their tools
• [00:06:56] Game, rhythm and challenge
• [00:07:14] Mental posture
• [00:07:40] Extrinsic vs intrinsic motivation
• [00:07:58] Tough days
• [00:08:13] The power of micro-goals
• [00:08:57] Motivation as a result
• [00:09:26] The prospector’s posture
• [00:09:56] The memory of success
• [00:10:20] Mindset
• [00:10:30] Mental control of the conversation
• [00:10:45] The body before the mind
• [00:11:08] Learning and applying techniques
• [00:11:41] Testimonial: active listening as the key to prospecting
• [00:12:06] Testimonial: enjoying discovering new companies and contacts
• [00:12:33] Testimonial: the pleasure of human contact in prospecting
• [00:13:01] Testimonial: accepting “no” and understanding statistical logic
• [00:14:10] Testimonial: loving the job and human exchanges
• [00:14:25] Curiosity and understanding others
• [00:15:02] Using notes and summaries
• [00:15:16] Turning listening into commercial progress

[00:00:13] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the podcast "Performance, Harmony & Commercial", produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio in Brussels with the technical assistance of "The Podcast Factory Org".

[00:00:23] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is intended for marketing and sales managers as well as company directors taking on commercial roles.

[00:00:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Every month, we share good experiences with you regarding the search for new clients for businesses active in business-to-business.

[00:00:38] Nadia Ben Jelloun: You can find each episode on the PHCom dot be website, P.H.C.O.M., and also on all good podcast platforms.

[00:00:48] Stéphane Depaepe: You can support this podcast and boost its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, a comment, a share.

[00:00:55] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The answering machine is always active so you can leave us a message; we will gladly answer it.

[00:01:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by going to PHCom dot be.

[00:01:06] Nadia Ben Jelloun: See you soon.

[00:01:07] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello Mrs. Harmony,

[00:01:08] Camille de Meeûs: Hello Mr. Performance.

[00:01:10] Stéphane Depaepe: Mrs. Harmony, are you cut out for prospecting?

[00:01:12] Camille de Meeûs: And you, Mr. Performance, are you cut out for prospecting?

[00:01:15] Stéphane Depaepe: Well, let's be honest, prospecting is something you either love or hate.

[00:01:19] Camille de Meeûs: Or maybe you think you hate it because you don't understand what goes on in the mind when you prospect.

[00:01:25] Stéphane Depaepe: Exactly. So today, we are not going to say "You just need to get moving".

[00:01:28] Camille de Meeûs: No, we are going to ask a real question: are you cut out for prospecting? And above all, why?

[00:01:34] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes, because if you force yourself every day, well, that's not professionalism, that's burnout. Tell me, Mrs. Harmony, why did you finally get into prospecting yourself?

[00:01:46] Camille de Meeûs: I think the greatest quality for a prospector is listening and trying to understand the needs of the client, of the person you are calling. And you, Mr. Performance, why?

[00:01:57] Stéphane Depaepe: Well, I'm going to tell you right away that it's not because I like doing this or I like doing that, but it's mainly because I am me, it's just me. And me, Mr. Performance, well know that I am curious. I like to find out, I like to understand, so I like to listen. And ultimately, it becomes obvious to be able to meet, to set an appointment and to open the door. And so as a result, I am very happy at the end of the day when I have actually opened my doors. So I admit there are plenty of other good reasons why I've been doing this for 30 years, but right now that's mostly what I'm thinking about.

[00:02:32] Camille de Meeûs: Prospecting, we can still say it, remains a quite particular activity. It combines three things that the brain hates: rejection, uncertainty, and effort without immediate rewards.

[00:02:44] Stéphane Depaepe: Exactly, essentially prospecting goes against nature. In fact, your brain loves the familiar, it loves quick validation, a little hit of dopamine, it loves security. And here, in fact, you call someone who hasn't asked for anything, you don't know what context you're walking into, you don't know what's going to happen.

[00:03:01] Camille de Meeûs: And above all, who might maybe tell you no in three seconds.

[00:03:03] Stéphane Depaepe: So first question for the listener who is wondering if they are cut out for this job: when someone tells you no, do you take that as information or as a personal attack?

[00:03:15] Camille de Meeûs: Being made for prospecting isn't about liking rejection, it's knowing how not to carry it.

[00:03:19] Stéphane Depaepe: Really? And how do you do that?

[00:03:21] Camille de Meeûs: As the Toltecs say, don't take anything personally. If not now, it will be later. If not him, it will be someone else. There is always a positive outcome; behind the one who tells you no, there is always someone who will tell you yes. It's like sunshine after the rain.

[00:03:35] Stéphane Depaepe: Another misconception is that good prospectors love scripts.

[00:03:39] Camille de Meeûs: Oh really? I don't really believe that, it must box them in, right?

[00:03:43] Stéphane Depaepe: Actually, you're right; indeed, I think they love mastering the subject and especially not reciting a text like a robot. The script is actually not a prison, it's... Okay, perfect at the beginning, it gives you a map that tells you where you are going, but it won't tell you how to walk. What you really need is to master the subject. If anything, it's like in the theater, it's true, you can have a text and you can't deviate from it, but the way you act it out will give it so much color that the audience will appreciate it. And when you prospect, well, your audience is your prospect.

[00:04:17] Camille de Meeûs: In summary, for the candidate prospector, do you prefer reciting sentences or rather understanding what you do and why you do it? And then we'll add another layer: do you know what to do when someone tells you no?

[00:04:29] Stéphane Depaepe: So here, we might move from theater to improv, knowing that to handle 'no's well, you need to have acquired certain reflexes. In fact, these reflexes are somewhat of a structure. Both improvisers and prospectors have reflexes, automatisms, because without them, it's true, it creates anxiety. So the good news is that it can be learned, it can be practiced. So better than a script, take a framework, but ultimately, you can also use ready-made phrases, ready to draw.

[00:04:59] Camille de Meeûs: Ah, and is that the meaning of hunting for prospects?

[00:05:02] Stéphane Depaepe: Not only. Do you know the difference between a good and a bad hunter?

[00:05:06] Camille de Meeûs: Absolutely not, I don't know it.

[00:05:08] Stéphane Depaepe: So the difference is fundamental. The good hunter sees something moving and shoots, the bad hunter sees something moving and shoots, but it's not the same thing. More seriously, the good hunter shoots the right beast, seeking above all to track the game with patience and passion. That means a hunter will identify a presence, a track, sounds, movements, and know if there's something interesting or not.

[00:05:37] Camille de Meeûs: In prospecting, we're therefore talking about finding the right company, classifying it as A in the system: A, B, C, or D, and therefore finding the right person.

[00:05:44] Stéphane Depaepe: Exactly. The hunter wants to understand the terrain where they roam, at what time, under what conditions; they observe before acting.

[00:05:52] Camille de Meeûs: And when they act, I imagine they will position themselves correctly, not too early, not too late, and above all, not at random.

[00:05:58] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes, the right argument well placed, at the right time. And if they don't propose a meeting, well at least they know if it's worth pursuing or not.

[00:06:07] Camille de Meeûs: And do they hunt alone?

[00:06:09] Stéphane Depaepe: Hunters are not alone, but it's still them who decide. Prospectors are also alone, but they are also surrounded: by marketing, by communication, by a good brand, by people who have put together good files, by an IT team that has developed a good CRM because there's a good manager driving them, and... But in the end, it's up to them to act.

[00:06:33] Camille de Meeûs: It's true that it's super important to have solid foundations, support, and above all a good understanding of what you're looking for. On the other hand, they must still often feel alone because they make many contacts, with little immediate feedback. They like talking to others, yes, but they have to accept working alone. In fact, if you need constant approval, prospecting is clearly going to exhaust you. The key is to be autonomous.

[00:06:56] Stéphane Depaepe: Alternative: if you like the game, the rhythm, the challenge, well, those are ways of operating that will move you forward. You don't control every yes, but that can be an obstacle. But you actually control many other situations: like the number of calls, the quality of your preparation.

[00:07:14] Camille de Meeûs: And especially your posture. Meaning the smile, being in good shape, your work environment, and your dynamic. Your mental dynamic, that's the real trigger, it's being happy with your work before having sold. Not "Did I sell?" but "Did I work well?" It takes the pressure off and the motivation comes back.

[00:07:32] Stéphane Depaepe: And as I was saying earlier, there is no point in forcing yourself every day, it is counterproductive; willpower is good but it is a limited resource.

[00:07:40] Camille de Meeûs: Whereas remembering what you like, your drivers, that will really help you. Example. Example, extrinsic motivation is everything related to goals, bonuses, pressure. Or intrinsic motivation, which is more about meaning, mastery, autonomy, that is bottomless.

[00:07:58] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes. Well, now there can be off days, days where nothing goes right, we will tend to mess everything up and then we will quickly tend especially to not want to do anything anymore. And that doesn't work at all, on the contrary, you collapse if you do nothing.

[00:08:13] Camille de Meeûs: But yes, clearly. And in fact, sales energy fluctuates, you can sometimes be tempted to do less. If you are in a slump, I'll give you a little trick to get going, to get yourself restarted. Set yourself micro-goals, you will have quick wins, it will be your immediate feedback.

[00:08:27] Stéphane Depaepe: It is the very principle of having an intelligent discipline, tools, as we just explained, and not a heroic motivation of the type "I set myself completely unrealistic goals", "I force myself" and finally I get tired. So, your profile, if you want to prospect well, is: you know yourself, you know how you operate, you know what you like, and you remember it in case of the blues, while applying the right techniques.

[00:08:57] Camille de Meeûs: Here you touch upon perhaps the most important element, what motivates you. Let's say it right away, motivation is a result, not a starting point. You don't get motivated to prospect.

[00:09:07] Stéphane Depaepe: So, do you mean 'We prospect to get motivated?'. In fact, yes, yes, absolutely, every call is an opportunity to find a motivator. For you, as a person, to go from one call to another. Madame Harmonie, there you amazed me. So if we prospect intelligently, we become motivated again, I love it!

[00:09:26] Camille de Meeûs: And yes, I repeat, motivation is not decided, it is created by the internal state and the posture at the moment of picking up, you know that you will find something you like, that drives you. It can simply be hearing a hello to your hello. Prospecting is really a game, and it will facilitate taking risks, and it will allow you to dare a little bit more each time, and it will be a positive feeling for your interlocutor. You can be motivated, but tired, confident but stressed, what matters is the internal state perceived by your interlocutor.

[00:09:56] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes and I think we are progressing well. So you know the techniques to put yourself in good condition. I take this opportunity to give you four keys that you can keep in mind for every call. The first key is the memory of success, remember a call that went well.

[00:10:13] Camille de Meeûs: In fact, 30 seconds is enough to put you in that state. The brain does not tell the difference between experienced and re-experienced.

[00:10:20] Stéphane Depaepe: Second key. The offerer mindset, in fact you are not bothering, you are offering a possibility.

[00:10:27] Camille de Meeûs: Like 'We offer you the possibility to...'.

[00:10:30] Stéphane Depaepe: Exactly. Third key, regain mental control, you are the one calling, you know where you want to go.

[00:10:37] Camille de Meeûs: Remember anyway. Guiding is not dominating, it's securing the exchange. And for that you have the techniques to guide an interview from A to Z.

[00:10:45] Stéphane Depaepe: Finally, one last key takeaway perhaps from you, Madam Harmony?

[00:10:48] Camille de Meeûs: I would say the body before the mind. Breathing before the call, an audible smile, a slow, steady, firm voice. You always know where you're going.

[00:10:57] Stéphane Depaepe: At the same time. Move, stand up, and walk. In fact, the body leads the mind, so take breaks, and preferably not on your smartphone, but go move around in the fresh air.

[00:11:08] Camille de Meeûs: All these are reminders, these are techniques, but actually, what will characterize a good prospector is either you already master them, or you are ready to learn them, and above all, you put them into practice. In summary, the right question is: do you already know all this, or are you ready to receive it?

[00:11:23] Stéphane Depaepe: When we asked our team what each person considered to be their characteristic that made them "Be a good prospector", well, what stood out was curiosity. I'll let you hear a few comments from these people and it's obvious.

[00:11:41] Camille de Meeûs: Fabio, why do you feel you belong in prospecting?

[00:11:44] Fabio: I don't think I'm specially made for it, but I have a listening skill that allows me to adapt to my prospect's frequency. And the fact of listening, of having active listening, also allows me to adapt my pitch. It's a matter of sensitivity to your prospect, that's what really allows me to have good contact with the person I'm on the line with, it's fluid communication.

[00:12:06] Camille de Meeûs: Christelle, why do you feel you belong in prospecting?

[00:12:10] Christelle: I've always loved doing this job. I love chatting with people, I love discovering new horizons, new companies, etc. And I find it very interesting to be able to interact with different departments, whether it's human resources, or people who are more on the creative side in print, for example, so there, it's something that attracts me, where I feel good.

[00:12:33] Sandrine: It's something I did for a very long time, and a very long time ago too, where I was contacting scientists back then. So I also really like this aspect of making contact, and sometimes even in somewhat complicated environments. I also like this contact with people. So I need that, whether I see them or not, whether it's in a meeting or remotely. It's really something that motivates me. And above all, I know that behind it, a beautiful story is going to be written.

[00:13:01] Stéphane Depaepe: Geoffroy, the question is quite simple: why do you think you are made for prospecting?

[00:13:05] Geoffroy: Excellent question. I think that first, I'm not afraid to take initiative, especially to make mistakes. And so in this sense, prospecting, well I know I'm going to get noes, but I know I'm also going to get yeses. I think I've also made a habit of accepting noes, and that, one of the ways in a sense, that helps me take noes because by definition there will be noes, is telling myself that it brings me closer to the yeses. There is simply a statistical effect in the selection which means that, once you know your success ratio a little bit, ultimately if three tenths of my calls are successful, I know that if I get a no, I'm just getting closer to the three calls that will say yes to me. This statistical aspect allows me to fully absorb the noes without any problem. Perhaps the last thing to say is that I seek above all to understand and not to convince, and I think that can be felt in the calls. I don't put pressure on others, I just want clarity, I just want to position things and see if somewhere, in all honesty on their part, we go further into the information, or not. No pressure to sell since the goal is to understand.

[00:14:10] Stéphane Depaepe: Why do you think you are a good prospector.

[00:14:12] Hamza: Because I love what I do, quite simply. And because I like discussing, I like talking, I like exchanging, learning, that's it. And from the moment you love what you do, well I think you're a good prospector.

[00:14:25] Camille de Meeûs: Well yes, logically, when you're curious, fear decreases. You are no longer focused on yourself. Who is he? What is he experiencing? What is important to him? It becomes a compass, and as soon as you have understood the other person, it becomes obvious, curiosity replaces stress.

[00:14:40] Stéphane Depaepe: And developing trust, that's also something you build, it doesn't fall from the sky. Let's give a little additional technique for the curious, who by definition will make good prospectors, use the memory of success. Remember a sale, remember a good call, remember a smooth conversation.

[00:14:57] Camille de Meeûs: And as a result, exploit what you note down too, it allows you to prepare for a call.

[00:15:02] Stéphane Depaepe: Obviously the ideal is to know how to directly synthesize what your contact gave you, during the discussion, because then you will be able to immediately mirror, that is to say send back to your prospect what awaits him and he will automatically agree to move forward with you.

[00:15:16] Camille de Meeûs: Result you have reached your goal, you are happier and your next call starts in good conditions. So in fact, you will be a good prospector, a good market developer, if you know how to use what the other person tells you to move forward.

[00:15:29] Stéphane Depaepe: Let's summarize.

[00:15:29] Camille de Meeûs: Let's go!

[00:15:30] Stéphane Depaepe: You are made for prospecting if you accept uncertainty.

[00:15:34] Camille de Meeûs: Which does not prevent getting into the right state of mind before calling, you must always prepare yourself.

[00:15:38] Stéphane Depaepe: If you know yourself well enough, that you know how to understand yourself.

[00:15:42] Camille de Meeûs: Because knowing yourself is a prerequisite, it will allow you to regulate your work, feeling good in your body and good in your head.

[00:15:49] Stéphane Depaepe: If you are curious, that you like to understand, you will be a good hunter.

[00:15:53] Camille de Meeûs: Much better than the one who recites a pitch or waiting for the prospect to come. If you go looking for the information yourself, and you have understood the other person, you will quickly find what will suit both.

[00:16:03] Stéphane Depaepe: If you know how to take a hit without closing yourself off.

[00:16:06] Camille de Meeûs: In fact, you just like to bounce back and play off the other person.

[00:16:09] Stéphane Depaepe: If you know how to transform an initially cold approach, which shows your tension, into a warm approach, proving you're comfortable and know how to master the situation.

[00:16:21] Camille de Meeûs: That simply means you are confident and always open to learning new techniques.

[00:16:26] Stéphane & Camille (ensemble): Then see you very soon at PHCom...

[00:16:28] Stéphane Depaepe: And happy prospecting!

• [00:00:00] Intro — PHCom at the transforma bxl studio
• [00:01:07] What is OkDo: multi-technical B2B maintenance
• [00:01:30] A typical day: requests, planning, interventions
• [00:02:03] Standing out: doing it in-house, not promising “everything”
• [00:02:46] Getting started: finding clients, quality, reporting
• [00:03:35] Building loyalty: specialists vs “handyman”
• [00:05:02] Trades & types of work OkDo delivers
• [00:06:06] Obligations & compliance: fire safety, electrical, plans
• [00:06:43] Field observations: standards, emergency lighting, prevention
• [00:08:11] Without a sales team: how OkDo grows its clients
• [00:09:36] Key challenge: time, and prospecting slowing things down
• [00:10:09] Why PHCom: context, scepticism, turning point
• [00:11:04] Results: more meetings, time saved, clients
• [00:11:20] Anecdote: prospecting… and a “network” surprise
• [00:12:31] Positive surprises: hidden networks, reaching the right contact
• [00:13:24] Sales skills: listening, questioning, staying honest
• [00:15:01] Goals: team responsibility + references & brands
• [00:16:24] PHCom in 3 words: speed, efficiency, professionalism
• [00:16:34] Outro

Intro — PHCom at the transforma bxl studio

[00:00:13] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the podcast "Performance, Harmony & Sales" produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio in Brussels, with technical assistance from "The Podcast Factory Org".??

[00:00:23] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The "Performance, Harmony & Sales" Podcast is intended for marketing and sales managers as well as company executives taking on sales roles.

[00:00:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Every month, we share with you successful experiences regarding finding new clients for companies active in business-to-business.

[00:00:38] Nadia Ben Jelloun: You can find every episode on the site PHCom dot be, P.H.C.O.M, and also on all major podcast platforms.

[00:00:48] Stéphane Depaepe: You can support this podcast and boost its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, a comment, or a share.

[00:00:55] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The voicemail is always active so you can leave us a message; we will answer it with great pleasure.

[00:01:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by going to phcom dot be.

[00:01:06] Nadia Ben Jelloun: See you soon.

What is OkDo: multi-technical B2B maintenance

[00:01:07] Camille de Meeûs: Hello Philippe.

[00:01:07] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Hello Camille.

[00:01:09] Camille de Meeûs: We are super happy to have you today in this new episode of PHCom. Let's start with your business. What, specifically, is "OKDO"?

[00:01:17] Philippe Vanschoubroek: So, "OKDO" is a company specialized in multi-technical maintenance, exclusively for B2B clients. So we work mainly for clients who own stores, nursing homes, or for property managers who manage buildings.

A typical day: requests, planning, interventions

[00:01:30] Camille de Meeûs: But specifically, what does a workday look like within "OKDO"?

[00:01:32] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Well, a workday at "OKDO" is mostly about handling all client requests. That is to say, today we have ten people in the office and 30 technicians on the road; we do more or less 20,000 interventions per year. What does that mean? It means that requests come in. For example, a store that has a problem with lights because they are too bright, or not working; it means the client sends an email or calls the office and asks for a technician to stop by as quickly as possible.

[00:01:57] Camille de Meeûs: Is there a lot of competition in your sector? If so, what differentiates you from the competition?

Standing out: doing it in-house, not promising “everything”

[00:02:03] Philippe Vanschoubroek: It all depends on what you call competition. There are very big firms that do many, many things, but ultimately—and this isn't a criticism—ultimately they don't do much themselves; they do a lot via subcontracting. So they promise to handle every possible technical aspect, but behind the scenes, there is obviously an organization creating schedules for a bunch of subcontractors. We work differently; we decided to offer only the work that we carry out ourselves. So that means: we have people on our payroll who are today truly specialized mainly in electricity, plumbing, interior finishing, roofing, and exterior works. And Handymen, as we call them, so, jacks-of-all-trades.

[00:02:42] Camille de Meeûs: What advice would you give to people today who would like to get started in the same business sector as you?

Getting started: finding clients, quality, reporting

[00:02:46] Philippe Vanschoubroek: I think there is actually a lot of advice to give. At the same time, we managed to get there in less than ten years simply because we saw there was a market, actually; there was real demand. And we did it little by little, meaning without clients and without initial technicians. The advice: well, firstly, you have to find the clients, obviously; you have to get the client interested. It has to be solid too, meaning that when a technician comes on site, he must do his job, and do it cleanly. The client also expects reporting, which means you don't just need a technician; you also need a system in the background that allows the client to verify if everything went well, because they aren't always on site. We work for certain networks that have more than 200 or 300, sometimes 500 stores, so the manager or the person requesting the work isn't on site, so they need to be able to verify afterwards if everything went well.

Building loyalty: specialists vs “handyman”

[00:03:35] Camille de Meeûs: Speaking of that, you mentioned the whole client aspect. How do things work at "OKDO" to ensure you retain your clients? How do you keep these clients in your database?

[00:03:45] Philippe Vanschoubroek: We are fortunate to have, I would say, very good technicians. Of course, there is inevitably a little turnover sometimes, but we focused very quickly on quality. Not the cheapest price—that doesn't mean we are the most expensive, but we are in the mid-range. But if clients are paying a certain price, it means they are also entitled to quality. We really focused very early on finding specialized people. I was speaking earlier about handymen—it's a bit of a pejorative term—and we have some, guys who can do a bit of everything. But we understood very quickly that when clients have an electrical problem, they want an electrician to come by, not a handyman doing a small odd job. So you have to see the intervention through to the end, and for that, you need specialized people.

[00:04:24] Camille de Meeûs: A handyman is someone versatile, it's about versatility (Philippe Vanschoubroek: Yes), someone who can do several things (Philippe Vanschoubroek: Yes); they aren't a specialist.

[00:04:31] Philippe Vanschoubroek: He isn't a specialist in a specific field, so indeed he is a generalist. A handyman is a technician who, for example, comes into a store and does a bunch of little things that others don't want to do. That means: replacing a tile, changing a trap, changing a light bulb, and oiling a squeaky door—that's a handyman. But indeed, he isn't a specialist in everything; if there is really a more serious problem, or more substantial work to be done, it's better to have a specialist.

[00:04:58] Camille de Meeûs: But what are the other specialties your technicians offer?

Trades & types of work OkDo delivers

[00:05:02] Philippe Vanschoubroek: You have to understand that the handyman aspect is a small part of what we offer. Naturally, it is absolutely necessary and useful, but as I've already explained, the most important thing is working with specialized people. So we propose our services, and these services are performed by our technicians who are on our payroll; it's important indeed that we can see the service through to completion. That means: today we have electricians, we have plumbers, we have finishers—so that means walls, floors, ceilings. We have roofers, and a small portion can indeed do a bit of everything as a handyman. 85% of the interventions we do are done by specialists, but we don't just do small interventions. So I have technicians who do three or four interventions a day. Alongside that, we also do—I won't call them construction sites—but more significant works. More significant works could be: renovating rooms or bathrooms in a nursing home, it could be repainting an entire hall of a building, it's redoing major plumbing over a week with two or three men. So we also do that type of work.

[00:06:02] Camille de Meeûs: We have the whole aesthetic side of the work, but what about the work that is mandatory?

Obligations & compliance: fire safety, electrical, plans

[00:06:06] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Well, it's true that regulations are evolving more and more as well, and in that context, we go even further and can bring electricity up to code, including single-line diagrams, etc. single-line schematics. For example also: fire protection. Within "OKDO Building Maintenance" we have an entity called "Secu-Fire" which specializes in fire protection. That means we install and inspect extinguishers, hose reels, fire doors, etc. And so that legislation is also changing more and more lately.

[00:06:40] Camille de Meeûs: What are the recurring observations you make in your line of work?

Field observations: standards, emergency lighting, prevention

[00:06:43] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Well, generally speaking, we notice that, starting with fire safety, I won't say we're rarely up to code, but it depends on the buildings. Many residential buildings today, meaning apartment buildings, are rarely 100% compliant, whether in terms of electricity, but especially regarding fire safety. What does fire safety mean? It's not enough to just have fire extinguishers; you also have to check if there are fire doors that work, emergency lighting blocks—very important because, in the end, it's not really the fire that kills people, it's simply that they can't see anything anymore because there is too much smoke. And if the emergency lights aren't working, well, people just don't know how to get out of the building; that's the first thing. Next, more so for buildings like, I'd say, industrial sites or offices, it's preventive maintenance. That is to say, prevention is better than cure; it means maintaining your roofs, maintaining the grounds, etc. It's better than waiting for water to leak from the roof because everything is clogged and because the roof was poorly maintained. That means we end up with more damage later, we're in an emergency situation, etc. Preventive maintenance is the best way, simply to keep things running. It doesn't cost more, but it prevents a huge amount of damage and is necessarily easier to manage in terms of costs and scheduling.

[00:07:55] Camille de Meeûs: It clearly limits the damage.

[00:07:56] Philippe Vanschoubroek: It clearly limits the damage, or even avoids it. That means fewer arguments with insurance companies, with residents, or with the people occupying the offices. Yes, preventive plans exist, I would say they are quite simple, you know; again, it's a question of cost, it's simply a question of organization.

Without a sales team: how OkDo grows its clients

[00:08:11] Camille de Meeûs: Someone who starts with you as a sales rep, a salesperson... do you have sales reps, salespeople within "OKDO" to sell your services?

[00:08:17] Philippe Vanschoubroek: No.

[00:08:17] Camille de Meeûs: No, there are no Sales reps. But then how do you manage to find these clients? The follow-up, the quality of your technicians, etc. (Philippe Vanschoubroek: Yeah). But before those people go out into the field, you have to find them clients, so how does that work at that level?

[00:08:27] Philippe Vanschoubroek: At that level, I was lucky to have actually started "OKDO Building Maintenance" with partners. We divided the commercial side in two, meaning there are two of the four partners who mostly did the canvassing for clientele. We naturally split it up: Jerry does more of the property management side and I do more of the retail side and also the Dutch-speaking clients since we have quite a lot of them. And then we started like that, quite simply. Yes, there was some canvassing at the start, and then afterwards, quite a few clients brought in other clients. There is also sometimes a certain turnover among facility managers, so that means one leaves a network for another and then proposes us again in this new network. And then we also, as I was saying earlier, really paid very, very close attention to quality, to client follow-up. We have very loyal clients going back several years and major clients.

[00:09:18] Camille de Meeûs: So you actually have a certain reputation now?

[00:09:20] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Yes, I think so; in any case, I realized it when I had meetings with prospects, people I had never met before. Indeed, I think we have a pretty good reputation in the facility management market.

[00:09:32] Camille de Meeûs: What are the main difficulties one might encounter on the commercial side in your sector?

Key challenge: time, and prospecting slowing things down

[00:09:36] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Difficulties, well I'd say the primary difficulty in our trade is not having enough time. Meaning that as a partner, we don't exactly have only that to do. We grew quickly in a short time, which obviously also demands a lot of work regarding technician follow-up, regarding the follow-up of internal staff. To sometimes rethink, or restructure the company because it's growing. I would say honestly the commercial part has, I won't say become secondary, but we were following up with our clients, yet for a certain time, we didn't prospect enough.

Why PHCom: context, scepticism, turning point

[00:10:09] Camille de Meeûs: Very good connection. So, now we're going to talk about the collaboration with PHCom. Tell me a little bit about the history with PHCom, since when and why this collaboration?

[00:10:18] Philippe Vanschoubroek: We got in touch with PHCom via a client who told us about PHCom around April-May, and we were actually in the middle of reorganizing a little bit and telling ourselves that we really needed to start prospecting again. So, we got in touch very quickly, and the contact went well. It's true that at the beginning you're always a bit skeptical, because you tell yourself, "Well, we know how to do it better, so why them and not us?" But there you go, we realized that, well, firstly, it is a profession in itself. Even for me, having been in sales for 30 years, you have to be honest, it's not the most fun part. It's making calls, trying to get appointments, and calling, calling again until you actually get the appointment. That honestly helped us a lot.

[00:10:59] Camille de Meeûs: Can we say that the collaboration with PHCom allowed you to be more productive, to save more time?

Results: more meetings, time saved, clients

[00:11:04] Philippe Vanschoubroek: It certainly saved us time, since we could never have had so many appointments in such a short time. We had more or less thirty appointments in three months; if someone had told me that at the start, well, I wouldn't have believed it. Yes, it saved us time in any case, and it has already won us some clients.

Anecdote: prospecting… and a “network” surprise

[00:11:20] Camille de Meeûs: Philippe, do you have an anecdote to share with us regarding the collaboration with PHCom?

[00:11:24] Philippe Vanschoubroek: It's more of a coincidence. Following the prospecting, an appointment was set for me with a prospect. Well, it's true that we receive a lot of emails, appointments, etc. so I didn't pay attention to it right away but... The day before the appointment, I said to myself, "Hey, who do I have an appointment with tomorrow? Where have I been booked for an appointment?", and essentially, it was at a friend of mine's place. But it was a company involved in property development; I didn't have the appointment with that friend, I would say fortunately, in a way. I met two people during that appointment, but I thought to myself, "Well, they aren't aware that we know each other," so I did my presentation, etc. And it was only after an hour and a half that one of the two people said to me, "Yes, but you do know our CEO, right?" And so there I said, "Yes, it's true," but they asked me the question, "Why are you only making contact now? And why didn't you go through that person?" I said, "Quite simply because I didn't think of it, for one. And then secondly, I think it's actually better not to go through someone, quote-unquote, perhaps more privileged. It might have placed more of a sense of obligation on people. So I actually prefer to meet the people in the field. And afterwards let it be confirmed that, well, we are someone trustworthy."

Positive surprises: hidden networks, reaching the right contact

[00:12:31] Camille de Meeûs: In the various appointments that PHCom's prospectors booked for you, for "OKDO", did you have any good surprises?

[00:12:38] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Yes, I had several. Among the surprises, that is to say, actually you don't realize the number of networks that exist. By network, I mean, some clients are companies that manage a lot of buildings; I'm thinking for example of a client I met, who manages over 700 buildings in Belgium, which is really huge. So what I mean by that is, it's not a retail chain, it's not a brand; it means it's a company managing 700 buildings. These buildings belong to them, but actually, it's not something one could find on one's own. I mean by that, at that point you have to go through a company, for example like PHCom, that knows this hidden world, this sub-world, I would say unknown, since it is not a known brand. You really have to know the companies managing these buildings and the people working in that company to finally get to the right appointment.

Sales skills: listening, questioning, staying honest

[00:13:24] Camille de Meeûs: In your opinion, what are the sales skills that are essential today?

[00:13:27] Philippe Vanschoubroek: I'm not going to teach you anything new. I've been in sales for 30 years myself. At the beginning, I thought you had to talk a lot, but in the end, that's not true. I learned over time that it's better to ask a few questions and listen, rather than trying to sell your product or service at all costs. So there you go, it's about letting the other person speak first before presenting your product or service. Because ultimately, it's the client who gives us the key, or gives us the answer as to whether it could be of interest to them or not. And then afterwards, you also have to be honest; you can only sell when there is a real need. So sometimes a meeting might simply end with us saying, "Let's stop here; I can't do anything for you," or "You don't have any needs that I can meet."

[00:14:08] Camille de Meeûs: Listening is paramount.

[00:14:09] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Listening is paramount, and asking the right questions is too.

[00:14:13] Camille de Meeûs: And to ask the right questions, you also have to take an interest in the person in front of you (Philippe Vanschoubroek: Yeah) and the person on the other end of the line.

[00:14:18] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Of course, of course. It's also experience that dictates it's not necessarily about asking questions just for the sake of it, but simply because we are genuinely interested in the client's problem. We know the issues generally, but then again, a network of buildings, or buildings themselves, aren't always the same thing so...

[00:14:32] Camille de Meeûs: Every case is different.

[00:14:33] Philippe Vanschoubroek: The client is looking for technical solutions, yes, but then, there are different ways to get there and to interest the client as well. That is to say, not just the technical intervention, but also the administrative part. Meaning, as I said at the beginning, the client wants good reporting; they want to know where they stand and they also want to reach good conclusions, so we have to go further than just the technical work. We also have to help them manage these buildings and be able to create added value on that level.

Goals: team responsibility + references & brands

[00:15:01] Camille de Meeûs: What is your next ambition, or personal commercial goal?

[00:15:04] Philippe Vanschoubroek: The goals are always, I would say, twofold. On one hand, we have the goals for the company. Naturally, when you start a company from scratch and today you have 30 employees and workers, you have a certain responsibility. So, that means we have to feed them, so to speak, and we have to be certain that we can keep them so we can continue working with them, and for them, so that's my first objective. The second, I would say, is perhaps more personal on a commercial level: it's to land some big brands at some point—more big brands, perhaps better-known brands—since that always serves as a reference for future clients or future meetings. We already have some; it's easy, you know, to say, "We work for so-and-so or so-and-so." Somehow, the prospect feels more at ease. Personally, I have a few targets that would make me happy.

[00:15:52] Camille de Meeûs: Is it important to have references like that, from companies you've collaborated with for years?

[00:15:56] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Yes, yes, certainly. It obviously counts for prospects because it reassures them that we are already in this market, that we are already active, that we know how it works, right? Again, it's not just a technical question; it's also a question of client follow-up, IT systems, or a platform that allows us to do exactly that. I think everyone likes to buy from a store where they aren't the only one buying, and where hundreds of people have already passed through before and are satisfied. It naturally reassures them in the purchase.

PHCom in 3 words: speed, efficiency, professionalism

[00:16:24] Camille de Meeûs: If you had to define your collaboration with PHCom in three words, what would you say?

[00:16:28] Philippe Vanschoubroek: I would say, in any case: speed, efficiency, and professionalism.

Outro

[00:16:34] Camille de Meeûs: Thank you Philippe, and all the best for the future.

[00:16:36] Philippe Vanschoubroek: Thank you very much.

• [00:01:08] Introduction to Quentin Hanquet and Travie
• [00:01:35] What differentiates Travie: a very broad activity portfolio
• [00:02:32] Core values: inclusion, adapted environment, dedicated support
• [00:03:13] Commercial complexities within the sector
• [00:03:57] Seasonality: a very busy second half of the year
• [00:04:27] How new clients are generated
• [00:05:45] Pipeline management, follow-ups and internal practices
• [00:06:34] Building trust: collaboration at every level
• [00:07:06] Essential commercial skills: active listening
• [00:07:27] 2026 ambitions: offsetting the decline in inbound demand
• [00:08:16] Economic context and uncertainty
• [00:08:36] 2024 collaboration with PHCom
• [00:09:43] Time saved thanks to PHCom
• [00:10:21] Using PHCom’s DM programme
• [00:11:41] Is Travie more expensive? Pricing clarification
• [00:13:18] How workers join Travie
• [00:14:09] Why choose PHCom: a human and effective approach
• [00:15:14] Collaboration in three words: “excellent”
• [00:15:22] Podcast closing remarks

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast "Performance, Harmony & Commercial", produced by PHCom in the "transforma -bxl" studio using the techniques of "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Sales" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with sales responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share with you our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point be website, P.H.C.O.M, and on all the good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on phcom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:07] Hello Quentin

Quentin Hanquet: [00:01:08] Hello Camille

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:08] We're delighted to welcome you today in this beautiful PHCom podcast. So, tell us a little bit about what you do. What are your activities?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:01:15] I'm a sales manager at Travie. Travie is an adapted work company founded in 1980 and located along the canal in Anderlecht. There are roughly 400 people working at Travie, 335 of whom are disabled. And so our mission is to offer paid, suitable work to all our workers.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:35] There are a lot of ETAs, so E.T.A., so that our listeners understand what Entreprise de Travail Adapté really means.

Quentin Hanquet: [00:01:43] So I'd say that what sets us apart from the competition is the fact that we have an extremely broad range of activities. So we're a pretty big operation. And so we're going to offer a whole range of activities, including fresh food, dry food, assembly, packaging, mailing, as well as sending workers to our customers' sites. And so I'd say that the first thing that sets us apart is precisely this very wide range of activities, so as we say back home, "We produce fresh lettuce on electric bikes". That's how wide our range of activities is. What also sets us apart is the fact that we're a large structure, with a high production capacity, and that we can offer our customers flexibility in terms of production to attenuate their seasonal peaks. That's what sets us apart.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:32] What are the company's values?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:02:34] Company values? Our ben mission is inclusion, offering paid work in a setting adapted to the specific needs of the people who work with us. That's really what we want to offer, we want to offer a working environment in which people can blossom, which is nevertheless a job, so it's paid work, it's not occupational, people really come to us to work. But what really sets us apart from an average company is the fact that we have a supervisor who makes sure that each person is in the right place at each production workstation, and that the workstation is adapted to the person's disability.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:13] Now let's talk about the commercial stakes. What's working well and what's not in your sector?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:03:20] So it's a bit difficult to say what's working well and what's not in our sector, since we do so many things. I'd rather rephrase that as "What are the complexities of our industry?". What's complex in our sector is that we offer a service, so we're subject to the requests we receive from our customers, and to the seasonal variation in these requests. So, typically, as we're here to absorb our customers' seasonal peaks, there will be times of the year when we'll have a lot more work than other times of the year. Typically, the second half of the year is a very busy period, because there are a lot of requests from companies.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:57] We're right in the middle of it now.

Quentin Hanquet: [00:03:57] That's it, we're right in the middle of it. For the end of the year, for Easter and, in short, for all the commercial news ahead. This keeps us very busy in the second half of the year, but the first half is traditionally a quieter period. The challenge for us is really to be able to complete our business during this slightly quieter period, and to find additional activities to ensure that our business is as smooth and stable as possible throughout the year, so that we can fulfill our social mission.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:27] How do you generate new customers, new leads if I can call them that?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:04:31] There are different ways of generating a new type of activity. First of all, the contact we have with our customers. At the moment, we're trying to work in good coordination with our customers to anticipate certain productions, to try and smooth them out a little more. We also have a series of activities for which we have a little more control over the schedule in terms of production. These are activities that we've been looking for, for which we can manage production, so that's a good complement. And of course, and I think this is why I'm here today, there's a real need for us to be proactive on the sales front to continue developing our business. We have to be constantly on our toes to keep developing our business, we can't afford to rest on our laurels. Even if we have a portfolio of regular customers who are loyal and well-established, that's not enough to guarantee us stable business throughout the year, so we need to be proactive in our approach to finding new customers, and also in different areas of activity, where there's less seasonality. That's why we called on PHCom to initiate this process in a structured way.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:45] So it's understandable that PHCom has really come, or at least arrived, to help you with your business development. But apart from that, do you have any specific tools or practices for managing your pipeline, your follow-ups, your appointments, beyond PHCom? Is there another structure made in-house?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:05:59] Before working with PHCom, I used to say that we did things a little with our own resources and common sense. It was a matter of relaunching customers and former customers, etc. But I would say that the axis that has always been favored, and which I think is also, and remains despite everything, an essential axis, is first and foremost to continue to listen to our customers at the present time. The major challenge right now is to keep our customers, support our customers, listen to their needs, and eventually add other types of activities that we don't do with these customers to enrich our activities.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:34] How do you create a long-term relationship of trust with your customers?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:06:38] The relationship of trust comes from working together at every level of the company. So it's not just at commercial level that the relationship with the customer is established, it's also at production and team level. And it's when all levels of the company work really well together that people talk to each other, share their problems, and from that moment on, well, the trust is there, it's really something that's built, clearly!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:06] What business skills do you consider essential today? We can't do without it.

Quentin Hanquet: [00:07:10] The business skills that are essential are listening. Clearly, it's all about listening, getting an idea of our customers' needs, and seeing how we can support them, how we can adapt our structure to meet those needs. I think that's the core competency.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:27] Is there an ambition or business goal that Travie would like to achieve? Here we are at the end of 2025, in 2026, how do you see things?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:07:36] It's a complicated year at the moment because, given the current economic climate, we're facing an erosion, not in terms of the number of our customers, because our customers are there and are still there, but we're facing an erosion in terms of the contribution made by our customers in terms of work in our companies. The big challenge for us next year is going to be to find additional activities to complement this erosion that's taking place, and when we see the current economic context, we tell ourselves that we can't just sit back and wait for things to happen, so we really have to be proactive about this and take the lead.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:16] It's scary, even in your sector?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:08:19] Well, let's just say that the current context, and I'm not even talking about the political context, eh? In which, at the level of the Brussels Region, there is still a great deal of uncertainty for all associations. I'm not even talking about that aspect, but clearly at the economic level, there's a lot of uncertainty, and we feel it in our business, we feel it in our day-to-day activity.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:36] Now let's talk about working with PHCom. We worked together in 2024, I think (Quentin Hanquet: Absolutely), we did a first mission. How do you think it went, and why are you calling on us now? It's late 2025, what happened in between?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:08:50] We initiated a first collaboration in 2024. Because in 2024, we were faced with exactly the same problems as we are now. We also wanted to round out our customer portfolio a little. The collaboration went really well, we worked really well together, so I'm not going to say in terms of the sales strategy because that was defined by us, but in terms of the implementation of this sales strategy in the scripts, in the canvassing, in the way you were going to canvass the various prospects. We're really in the B2B business, not the end-customer business. It had gone well, we had worked together for a few months and it had resulted in additional activity on our part, which is far from nil and far from negligible, hence the desire this year to re-initiate a new collaboration to really give a boost to this approach because it's necessary, that's all.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:43] Has working with PHCom saved you time or made you more productive?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:09:47] Working with PHCom enables us to focus on the part of prospecting on which we have, I'd say, more added value because we work in the company. The fact that we can delegate qualified telephone calls to PHCom to qualify prospects enables us to concentrate on these prospects once they've been qualified and try to see how we can respond to their problems. It allows us to concentrate on what's important at the end of the day.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:19] Which is the most important thing.

Quentin Hanquet: [00:10:20] That's right.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:21] It seems to me that you're still working with our DM, our program, you started using it in 2024, we stopped the prospecting mission and you've continued to use it until now? How are things going for you? It's easy, it's intuitive?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:10:34] The program is actually relatively intuitive to use, and really helps us to keep track of the various communications we've had with prospects or customers. So in this respect, it's a database that we're building up as we go along, and one that will be much needed, and is already needed now, but will be even more necessary in the future. Because customer communication management is something that can't be neglected, and needs to be done in a structured way, and that's where the PHCom database really comes into its own, so that we can do it in a way that's different from the usual piecemeal approach. We continued to work on our own, with a small sales team, doing proactive canvassing in much the same way as PHCom. So, we've reaped some rewards, but in the end, we realize that it's something that consumes an enormous amount of time and energy, and that trying to do it on top of the work we're doing at the moment, our work in sales, is complicated. At the end of the day, it doesn't allow us to do it intensively enough to be able to get quick results in fact.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:41] When we talk about ETAs (Entreprise de Travail Adapté), is it expensive to work with you, if we can put it that way? When it comes to prices, because it can be a false belief when a company calls on you, how do things work?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:11:52] In general, a company calls on us because we have production capacity. People don't call on us because some do, but people don't call on us because we're an ETA. People call on us first of all because there's a need in terms of production, and we're there to meet that need. So do we have a competitive price advantage or not? I'd say that's for customers to judge. Now, the subsidy we receive from the regional authorities is there to compensate for the fact that a person with a disability is less productive than the average person. And so this subsidy is there to compensate for this lower productivity, in quotation marks, so this subsidy is not there to give us a competitive advantage. There are companies in Belgium that do packaging work similar to ours, with whom we'll be competing directly, and there's no guarantee that we'll have a competitive price advantage over them. But it's clear that we need to be well-positioned in terms of price, because if we're poorly positioned in terms of price, people won't come to work for us if there's a price differential compared to the competition, they won't come to work for us because we're an ETA, in the majority of cases I mean.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:18] The question may seem a bit silly, but how do the workers manage to work for you? How does it work? Do they come with a CV or are there intermediary agencies that place people with disabilities? How does this work?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:13:30] In this respect, we operate like any other company, with an HR department, with workers coming in and applying to work in our company, with positions opening up from time to time, and positions closing up from time to time, so there's not much difference. The only thing is, of course, that our workers' disabilities have to be recognized before they can come and work for us, and that's part of our social mission, so we can't, for economic reasons, hire workers who won't be subsidized. So we'd be going beyond our scope and our mission, so there you have it, so as long as the disability is recognized, people can come and apply to us without any problem.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:09] Let's get back to the PHCom collaboration. Why did you choose PHCom instead of another partner?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:14:16] So, first and foremost, I called on PHCom because I'd met Nadia, who works for you, at an event organized by Travie. And so, at that point, we discussed things a little together, and the prospecting approach proposed by PHCom seemed to me to be an original and human approach above all. And that's what immediately appealed to me and made me want to go a little further. Telephone canvassing may seem a little old-fashioned, but these days, I think, when you see what's coming into mailboxes, you quickly realize that, in fact, mail is useless - people don't look at it. And so you really need to be able to find a channel to reach the right person, with the right message, and generate interest. And that's what I think PHCom does so well. So that's why we work together, and why we work again together.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:14] So, if you had to define your collaboration with PHCom in three words, what would you say?

Quentin Hanquet: [00:15:18] It's excellent, that's three words.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:22] Many thanks Quentin, and all the best for the future.

Quentin Hanquet: [00:15:24] Thank you, Camille.

• [00:01:07] Introduction: Barriers at the first point of contact
• [00:01:30] Why these barriers often feel “invisible”
• [00:01:40] Sales is first and foremost a mindset
• [00:01:48] Dakis’ testimonial: adapting to the prospect’s tone of voice
• [00:02:19] Sandrine’s testimonial: the importance of accurate contact details
• [00:02:51] The role of reception
• [00:03:11] When you reach voicemail
• [00:03:45] Voicemail, email, multichannel: what should you do?
• [00:03:59] Dakis’ testimonial: the importance of leaving a message (or not)
• [00:04:21] Sandrine’s testimonial
• [00:05:41] Back to reception as the first gatekeeper
• [00:06:03] Differences between SMEs and large organisations
• [00:06:18] The receptionist as an ally
• [00:06:39] The professional filter: a legitimate role
• [00:06:56] The three profiles of receptionists
• [00:07:25] Adapting your tone and strategy
• [00:07:40] Preparing your objective before calling
• [00:07:52] The question: “What is this about?”
• [00:08:02] Benefit-oriented phrasing
• [00:08:32] What to avoid at all costs
• [00:08:37] Timing tip (early or late calls)
• [00:08:51] Example of a confident tone
• [00:09:02] Gaining information from every call
• [00:09:31] When the receptionist blocks access
• [00:09:40] Turning a barrier into a gateway
• [00:10:24] Practical cases: documentation requests, refusal to transfer
• [00:11:37] The TRAMAIS method
• [00:12:48] The barrier as an entry point
• [00:12:54] The receptionist as a long-term ally
• [00:13:05] Conclusion and call to share the episode

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast produced by PHCom, in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" Podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share with you our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point be website, P.H.C.O.M, and on all the good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:07] Hello everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the PHCom series, the podcast where we explore together the secrets of effective prospecting, without stress and always with a smile.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:17] And today, we're tackling the salesperson's nightmare when it comes to canvassing companies, blockages at the entrance!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:22] Those famous invisible barriers that waste your time. You feel like you're going round in circles, that you're not getting anywhere, and that you can't always talk to the right person.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:30] Why invisible?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:31] Because I get the impression that you start out thinking that you don't know who to approach, or that you're not going to get the right person on the other end of the phone. And that's what's blocking us from the start.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:40] We can't stress it enough: sales is all about the mind. Listen to what Dakis says, when asked how he approaches a company?

Dakis: [00:01:48] I'm not afraid of anything, I'm prepared for any eventuality. What I'm afraid of is that he or she won't get up on the right foot, so there's apprehension, so I'm always waiting to see which intonation will pick up on my call. And I try to adapt precisely to the prospect's vibrations, so I can get down to his level. If the person seems a little more concise, a little more in a hurry, or a little more pragmatic, I'll adapt. If the person looks relaxed, I adapt too.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:14] Well yes, I think he's right, we know it's going to work, optimism through and through.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:19] And if we go a step further, when we ask the question about the brakes, listen to what Sandrine has to say.

Sandrine: [00:02:23] If you have direct contact details, that makes life easier, seriously. After that, when we go through the switchboard, it's a matter of convincing the person that our call is useful to the company and that it's not the 1,000ᵉ call of the day that they're going to have to deal with. So you have to be able to stand out from the crowd, in terms of the message you convey, you have to be inventive, because every company is different.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:51] Finding the right person's name. And we know that in France, it's a real drag - she's a bit French, isn't she? And then there's the front desk, which may or may not want to give us the right contacts.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:01] You say the right word, she can't, that's the rule, and it's often the case at the reception. And if he doesn't want to, it's because he doesn't see the point, and that's often the case with a secretary or assistant.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:11] Now, let's say you've already got your contact's contact details, he's unavailable and you come across his voicemail.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:18] Well, let's see how to deal with this situation? Do you have the person's name and contact details? Well, it already depends on the database. So let's not talk about it too long, because it's already been covered in other episodes. In short, in PHCom Data Management's database, chances are you already have the name of the contact, otherwise you have LinkedIn, you have all the other tools that exist like Zoom-info, Loucha, le Trens, Konig, Casper, Rocket Search etc etc etc.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:45] Let's say you got the name directly, did you approach it live then?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:49] In this case, there are three possible scenarios. Voice mail, either it never answers, or you're passed on to another service. Listen to what Dakis has to say.

Dakis: [00:03:59] We're on trial for this, aren't we? We have an email process, but otherwise I leave a voicemail with an email, I always do both. This allows me to have an introduction in the e-mail, "Further to the voice message I sent you, in which I told you about this", and here I go on in the e-mail. Look, I don't have a ready-made answer either, I'm just trying to multiply the channels.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:19] I'm like Dakis, I also leave a message.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:21] Yes, Sandrine too, listen to her.

Sandrine: [00:04:23] Ah but I'm leaving a message, there's nothing worse than having, I think like everyone else, when you get a call and it's hung up you tell yourself it's not important. So people don't call back, so what I do is leave a message with my contact details, saying why I called. So, if they're not interested, they don't call back and in these cases I put in my little note to call them back a little later. And if I don't, I call back, leave a message asking them to call me back with my contact details, and customers sometimes call me back. It happened yesterday, and afterwards there was an appointment, so it's still working.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:55] Well, I'm going to surprise you: the technique of not leaving a message also applies. Because the person actually identifies a phone number and doesn't know who it is, so he calls back. And anyway, you can't leave 36 messages either, if he really doesn't reply, you really shouldn't harass, so you be the judge. Intensity, reminder frequency, leave a message, don't leave a message - it's up to you to decide what works best. Of course, if you've now been forwarded to another service, that means you've already got the person's name, you've probably already left messages, so you've got plenty of reasons to have a chat with the person you're talking to. Take the opportunity to prepare for a future call, gather information from colleagues, so you can really use all this information when you actually make contact with the right person.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:41] Back to the classic barrage: reception or secretary?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:44] Okay, let's make the distinction right away: small businesses, SMEs, large companies. Their role is to dispatch calls, but they're not the ones who really put up a barrier, except when it comes to disclosing or not disclosing people's names, and that depends on the rules established by the company.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:03] For small businesses, there isn't really a reception desk, but a Mr or Mrs X or Y who can answer in place of the person I want to reach. Again, this person can give me information and tell me when it's best to approach my contact.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:18] Ok, so let's effectively consider this person as an assistant, or a secretary, or conversely, a secretary or an assistant. They're not enemies, they're allies. The mind, the mind, the mind.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:31] Exactly. So let's see how we can get around it, or better still, how we can get them to play on our side.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:39] First of all, let's put things into perspective: when we talk about a dam, we're talking about a professional filter. The secretary's role is really to protect her boss's time, not to annoy you.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:48] Yes, it's a bit like the front door of the castle: if you arrive without an invitation, without a clear reason or by slamming the door, she's bound not to let you through.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:56] And there are many different types of secretary. First, the very methodical, very precise "executive profile" secretary, who handles every call like a military operation. Impossible to pass without a real good justification.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:08] Then there's the "administrative secretary", who is more procedural and follows the rules. You call, she transfers or not according to protocol, no room for improvisation.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:17] And then there's the "cautious" one, the one who's already had negative feedback and in fact no longer takes any risks. So if she doesn't know your name, it's a no-go.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:25] That's why you need to adapt your tone, and your strategy, to each profile. When a secretary is stressed, suspicious or under pressure, you can immediately hear it in her voice.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:34] Yes, and that's where the smart salesman comes into his own. Because it's benevolent, because it's calm, because it's reassuring.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:40] Before you call, be clear about your objective: who you want to reach, why and in what capacity? Remember, you're always the first impression you make on the company. So be professional, courteous and confident.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:52] And prepare your answer to the famous question "What's it about?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:57] Ah yes, that moment when it all comes down to it. Here, you need to be precise without being too talkative.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:02] Exactly, "I call it a solution that helps companies reduce their international communication costs". It's clear, it's clean.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:08] Or "I'm following up on a previous exchange about optimizing internal processes".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:13] The key is to use a sentence that's focused on benefiting the company, not yourself. Avoid vague formulations such as "I would like to speak with ....". About a project where...", or even worse, "I'm calling Monsieur So-and-so, it's personal" (Camille de Meeûs: Ah yes), never do that.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:32] Oh yes, that's a direct red card. We never lie, let's not forget, we're B2B.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:37] Here's a little tip: play with timing. Call early in the morning, before 9 a.m., or late in the day, after 5 p.m. - it's often quieter.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:44] Yes, at such times, the manager is sometimes at his desk, the secretary not yet, or already gone. Timing is everything.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:51] And if you run into her, well okay, you'll be able to sound confident, not dominant. Example: "Hello, Stéphane Performance for Camille Harmonie please, I'm calling to schedule an appointment".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:02] We don't ask "Could I maybe talk to him?". No, you calmly say "I'd like to speak to Mr. Thing" or again, if you don't have the name, "I'd like to speak to the person responsible for". And here, the key lies in gathering information. Find out his name, what time he comes to work, whether or not the company has worked with this type of service before. And don't forget, every call is a source of enriching information, and this will enable you to best prepare your contact with the person you're targeting.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:31] What if it blocks you? Well, never mind, we'll keep smiling and bounce back "I understand he's very busy. Maybe you can help me get a message across?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:40] And then you enhance it, turning the dam into a footbridge.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:43] That's right, it's the status game. In fact, you must always be at the same status as the person you're targeting. But at the same time, you can't be more than a secretary. So put yourself on her level, listen to her, find a way to collaborate with her, either real or... Use ice breakers, talk about something else, make this person an ally, even a friend, call them by their first name after all. Ask him his first name, and ask him some useful questions: "By the way, what's the best time to contact him or her? Is he in meetings all day, or more available in the early afternoon?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:20] And once again, make a note of everything - this information is worth its weight in gold for your next call.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:24] Okay, let's talk about a few practical cases, like "Send me some documentation first, I'll pass it on". Classic mistake: we obey. So especially if he says "Yes, send it to me info at..." Mmm, the generic email address.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:39] Yeah, and in that case, the mail often ends up in the junk folder or is even forgotten. But sometimes it can happen too, depending on the structure, whether it's small or large.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:49] I offer you a response profile, "Send me some documentation". "Yes, of course, I understand, it's precisely to make this documentation useful that I need to get a better idea of your needs. That's why a brief exchange with Mr. Machintruc Bazar would be much more pertinent".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:04] And if she insists, we listen and move on to other things. A face-to-face exchange is much nicer than an e-mail exchange in today's world, so let's take our time and see what synergies are possible.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:16] Yeah. Another case, the most classic, she really doesn't want to give the name of the caller. You can also bounce back like "Oh yes, I understand, it's your procedure, but can you maybe just confirm that this is the purchasing manager?" For example. Talk to her, get her to talk, she can give you lots of information.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:37] Or "I was in contact with Mr. So-and-so. What exactly is its role? And sometimes, by calmly asking the right questions, you get a lot more than you bargained for. Now we're going to give you a little mnemonic tool, the "Tramais" method, to remind you of everything we've just explained in this podcast.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:53] Yes, you never know what might be lurking around the corner, do you? So cram "T" like timing, call at the right time, choose the hours between 8am, 10am, after 5pm, at noon . "R" for relationship, stay respectful, nice, relaxed. "A" for a good attitude, stay confident, neither arrogant nor submissive. "M" For words, choose your vocabulary clear, clean, professional. "A" for help, involve the secretary in the success of your call, she can really be a tool. By the way, what's his job? It's helping, she likes helping, so ask her "Can you help me?". "I" For information, take advantage of the exchange to glean lots of useful information, and "S" for what comes next, always prepare what comes next: a reminder, an appointment, a follow-up - the "Tramais" method works!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:48] Well, if you've applied these seven points, the secretary's dam will become a real privileged gateway.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:54] And remember, a secretary is a good storyteller, often an ally for life.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:57] Thank you all for following us, and if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your colleagues who are still battling with the Standard every day.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:05] Or better still, send the podcast to your favorite secretary, she'll love it.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:09] See you soon for another episode.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:10] Above all, keep Performance and Harmony in mind.