• [00:01:07] Introduction
• [00:01:34] Prospecting profiles
• [00:02:32] Why the brain hates prospecting
• [00:03:03] Facing rejection
• [00:03:19] What to do
• [00:03:35] Scripts and misconceptions
• [00:04:17] Understanding what to do when you hear “no”
• [00:04:59] The hunting metaphor
• [00:05:37] Identifying the right company
• [00:05:58] The right argument at the right time
• [00:06:09] The prospector and their tools
• [00:06:56] Game, rhythm and challenge
• [00:07:14] Mental posture
• [00:07:40] Extrinsic vs intrinsic motivation
• [00:07:58] Tough days
• [00:08:13] The power of micro-goals
• [00:08:57] Motivation as a result
• [00:09:26] The prospector’s posture
• [00:09:56] The memory of success
• [00:10:20] Mindset
• [00:10:30] Mental control of the conversation
• [00:10:45] The body before the mind
• [00:11:08] Learning and applying techniques
• [00:11:41] Testimonial: active listening as the key to prospecting
• [00:12:06] Testimonial: enjoying discovering new companies and contacts
• [00:12:33] Testimonial: the pleasure of human contact in prospecting
• [00:13:01] Testimonial: accepting “no” and understanding statistical logic
• [00:14:10] Testimonial: loving the job and human exchanges
• [00:14:25] Curiosity and understanding others
• [00:15:02] Using notes and summaries
• [00:15:16] Turning listening into commercial progress

[00:00:13] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello and welcome to this new episode of the podcast "Performance, Harmony & Commercial", produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio in Brussels with the technical assistance of "The Podcast Factory Org".

[00:00:23] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is intended for marketing and sales managers as well as company directors taking on commercial roles.

[00:00:32] Stéphane Depaepe: Every month, we share good experiences with you regarding the search for new clients for businesses active in business-to-business.

[00:00:38] Nadia Ben Jelloun: You can find each episode on the PHCom dot be website, P.H.C.O.M., and also on all good podcast platforms.

[00:00:48] Stéphane Depaepe: You can support this podcast and boost its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, a comment, a share.

[00:00:55] Nadia Ben Jelloun: The answering machine is always active so you can leave us a message; we will gladly answer it.

[00:01:00] Stéphane Depaepe: You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane by going to PHCom dot be.

[00:01:06] Nadia Ben Jelloun: See you soon.

[00:01:07] Stéphane Depaepe: Hello Mrs. Harmony,

[00:01:08] Camille de Meeûs: Hello Mr. Performance.

[00:01:10] Stéphane Depaepe: Mrs. Harmony, are you cut out for prospecting?

[00:01:12] Camille de Meeûs: And you, Mr. Performance, are you cut out for prospecting?

[00:01:15] Stéphane Depaepe: Well, let's be honest, prospecting is something you either love or hate.

[00:01:19] Camille de Meeûs: Or maybe you think you hate it because you don't understand what goes on in the mind when you prospect.

[00:01:25] Stéphane Depaepe: Exactly. So today, we are not going to say "You just need to get moving".

[00:01:28] Camille de Meeûs: No, we are going to ask a real question: are you cut out for prospecting? And above all, why?

[00:01:34] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes, because if you force yourself every day, well, that's not professionalism, that's burnout. Tell me, Mrs. Harmony, why did you finally get into prospecting yourself?

[00:01:46] Camille de Meeûs: I think the greatest quality for a prospector is listening and trying to understand the needs of the client, of the person you are calling. And you, Mr. Performance, why?

[00:01:57] Stéphane Depaepe: Well, I'm going to tell you right away that it's not because I like doing this or I like doing that, but it's mainly because I am me, it's just me. And me, Mr. Performance, well know that I am curious. I like to find out, I like to understand, so I like to listen. And ultimately, it becomes obvious to be able to meet, to set an appointment and to open the door. And so as a result, I am very happy at the end of the day when I have actually opened my doors. So I admit there are plenty of other good reasons why I've been doing this for 30 years, but right now that's mostly what I'm thinking about.

[00:02:32] Camille de Meeûs: Prospecting, we can still say it, remains a quite particular activity. It combines three things that the brain hates: rejection, uncertainty, and effort without immediate rewards.

[00:02:44] Stéphane Depaepe: Exactly, essentially prospecting goes against nature. In fact, your brain loves the familiar, it loves quick validation, a little hit of dopamine, it loves security. And here, in fact, you call someone who hasn't asked for anything, you don't know what context you're walking into, you don't know what's going to happen.

[00:03:01] Camille de Meeûs: And above all, who might maybe tell you no in three seconds.

[00:03:03] Stéphane Depaepe: So first question for the listener who is wondering if they are cut out for this job: when someone tells you no, do you take that as information or as a personal attack?

[00:03:15] Camille de Meeûs: Being made for prospecting isn't about liking rejection, it's knowing how not to carry it.

[00:03:19] Stéphane Depaepe: Really? And how do you do that?

[00:03:21] Camille de Meeûs: As the Toltecs say, don't take anything personally. If not now, it will be later. If not him, it will be someone else. There is always a positive outcome; behind the one who tells you no, there is always someone who will tell you yes. It's like sunshine after the rain.

[00:03:35] Stéphane Depaepe: Another misconception is that good prospectors love scripts.

[00:03:39] Camille de Meeûs: Oh really? I don't really believe that, it must box them in, right?

[00:03:43] Stéphane Depaepe: Actually, you're right; indeed, I think they love mastering the subject and especially not reciting a text like a robot. The script is actually not a prison, it's... Okay, perfect at the beginning, it gives you a map that tells you where you are going, but it won't tell you how to walk. What you really need is to master the subject. If anything, it's like in the theater, it's true, you can have a text and you can't deviate from it, but the way you act it out will give it so much color that the audience will appreciate it. And when you prospect, well, your audience is your prospect.

[00:04:17] Camille de Meeûs: In summary, for the candidate prospector, do you prefer reciting sentences or rather understanding what you do and why you do it? And then we'll add another layer: do you know what to do when someone tells you no?

[00:04:29] Stéphane Depaepe: So here, we might move from theater to improv, knowing that to handle 'no's well, you need to have acquired certain reflexes. In fact, these reflexes are somewhat of a structure. Both improvisers and prospectors have reflexes, automatisms, because without them, it's true, it creates anxiety. So the good news is that it can be learned, it can be practiced. So better than a script, take a framework, but ultimately, you can also use ready-made phrases, ready to draw.

[00:04:59] Camille de Meeûs: Ah, and is that the meaning of hunting for prospects?

[00:05:02] Stéphane Depaepe: Not only. Do you know the difference between a good and a bad hunter?

[00:05:06] Camille de Meeûs: Absolutely not, I don't know it.

[00:05:08] Stéphane Depaepe: So the difference is fundamental. The good hunter sees something moving and shoots, the bad hunter sees something moving and shoots, but it's not the same thing. More seriously, the good hunter shoots the right beast, seeking above all to track the game with patience and passion. That means a hunter will identify a presence, a track, sounds, movements, and know if there's something interesting or not.

[00:05:37] Camille de Meeûs: In prospecting, we're therefore talking about finding the right company, classifying it as A in the system: A, B, C, or D, and therefore finding the right person.

[00:05:44] Stéphane Depaepe: Exactly. The hunter wants to understand the terrain where they roam, at what time, under what conditions; they observe before acting.

[00:05:52] Camille de Meeûs: And when they act, I imagine they will position themselves correctly, not too early, not too late, and above all, not at random.

[00:05:58] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes, the right argument well placed, at the right time. And if they don't propose a meeting, well at least they know if it's worth pursuing or not.

[00:06:07] Camille de Meeûs: And do they hunt alone?

[00:06:09] Stéphane Depaepe: Hunters are not alone, but it's still them who decide. Prospectors are also alone, but they are also surrounded: by marketing, by communication, by a good brand, by people who have put together good files, by an IT team that has developed a good CRM because there's a good manager driving them, and... But in the end, it's up to them to act.

[00:06:33] Camille de Meeûs: It's true that it's super important to have solid foundations, support, and above all a good understanding of what you're looking for. On the other hand, they must still often feel alone because they make many contacts, with little immediate feedback. They like talking to others, yes, but they have to accept working alone. In fact, if you need constant approval, prospecting is clearly going to exhaust you. The key is to be autonomous.

[00:06:56] Stéphane Depaepe: Alternative: if you like the game, the rhythm, the challenge, well, those are ways of operating that will move you forward. You don't control every yes, but that can be an obstacle. But you actually control many other situations: like the number of calls, the quality of your preparation.

[00:07:14] Camille de Meeûs: And especially your posture. Meaning the smile, being in good shape, your work environment, and your dynamic. Your mental dynamic, that's the real trigger, it's being happy with your work before having sold. Not "Did I sell?" but "Did I work well?" It takes the pressure off and the motivation comes back.

[00:07:32] Stéphane Depaepe: And as I was saying earlier, there is no point in forcing yourself every day, it is counterproductive; willpower is good but it is a limited resource.

[00:07:40] Camille de Meeûs: Whereas remembering what you like, your drivers, that will really help you. Example. Example, extrinsic motivation is everything related to goals, bonuses, pressure. Or intrinsic motivation, which is more about meaning, mastery, autonomy, that is bottomless.

[00:07:58] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes. Well, now there can be off days, days where nothing goes right, we will tend to mess everything up and then we will quickly tend especially to not want to do anything anymore. And that doesn't work at all, on the contrary, you collapse if you do nothing.

[00:08:13] Camille de Meeûs: But yes, clearly. And in fact, sales energy fluctuates, you can sometimes be tempted to do less. If you are in a slump, I'll give you a little trick to get going, to get yourself restarted. Set yourself micro-goals, you will have quick wins, it will be your immediate feedback.

[00:08:27] Stéphane Depaepe: It is the very principle of having an intelligent discipline, tools, as we just explained, and not a heroic motivation of the type "I set myself completely unrealistic goals", "I force myself" and finally I get tired. So, your profile, if you want to prospect well, is: you know yourself, you know how you operate, you know what you like, and you remember it in case of the blues, while applying the right techniques.

[00:08:57] Camille de Meeûs: Here you touch upon perhaps the most important element, what motivates you. Let's say it right away, motivation is a result, not a starting point. You don't get motivated to prospect.

[00:09:07] Stéphane Depaepe: So, do you mean 'We prospect to get motivated?'. In fact, yes, yes, absolutely, every call is an opportunity to find a motivator. For you, as a person, to go from one call to another. Madame Harmonie, there you amazed me. So if we prospect intelligently, we become motivated again, I love it!

[00:09:26] Camille de Meeûs: And yes, I repeat, motivation is not decided, it is created by the internal state and the posture at the moment of picking up, you know that you will find something you like, that drives you. It can simply be hearing a hello to your hello. Prospecting is really a game, and it will facilitate taking risks, and it will allow you to dare a little bit more each time, and it will be a positive feeling for your interlocutor. You can be motivated, but tired, confident but stressed, what matters is the internal state perceived by your interlocutor.

[00:09:56] Stéphane Depaepe: Yes and I think we are progressing well. So you know the techniques to put yourself in good condition. I take this opportunity to give you four keys that you can keep in mind for every call. The first key is the memory of success, remember a call that went well.

[00:10:13] Camille de Meeûs: In fact, 30 seconds is enough to put you in that state. The brain does not tell the difference between experienced and re-experienced.

[00:10:20] Stéphane Depaepe: Second key. The offerer mindset, in fact you are not bothering, you are offering a possibility.

[00:10:27] Camille de Meeûs: Like 'We offer you the possibility to...'.

[00:10:30] Stéphane Depaepe: Exactly. Third key, regain mental control, you are the one calling, you know where you want to go.

[00:10:37] Camille de Meeûs: Remember anyway. Guiding is not dominating, it's securing the exchange. And for that you have the techniques to guide an interview from A to Z.

[00:10:45] Stéphane Depaepe: Finally, one last key takeaway perhaps from you, Madam Harmony?

[00:10:48] Camille de Meeûs: I would say the body before the mind. Breathing before the call, an audible smile, a slow, steady, firm voice. You always know where you're going.

[00:10:57] Stéphane Depaepe: At the same time. Move, stand up, and walk. In fact, the body leads the mind, so take breaks, and preferably not on your smartphone, but go move around in the fresh air.

[00:11:08] Camille de Meeûs: All these are reminders, these are techniques, but actually, what will characterize a good prospector is either you already master them, or you are ready to learn them, and above all, you put them into practice. In summary, the right question is: do you already know all this, or are you ready to receive it?

[00:11:23] Stéphane Depaepe: When we asked our team what each person considered to be their characteristic that made them "Be a good prospector", well, what stood out was curiosity. I'll let you hear a few comments from these people and it's obvious.

[00:11:41] Camille de Meeûs: Fabio, why do you feel you belong in prospecting?

[00:11:44] Fabio: I don't think I'm specially made for it, but I have a listening skill that allows me to adapt to my prospect's frequency. And the fact of listening, of having active listening, also allows me to adapt my pitch. It's a matter of sensitivity to your prospect, that's what really allows me to have good contact with the person I'm on the line with, it's fluid communication.

[00:12:06] Camille de Meeûs: Christelle, why do you feel you belong in prospecting?

[00:12:10] Christelle: I've always loved doing this job. I love chatting with people, I love discovering new horizons, new companies, etc. And I find it very interesting to be able to interact with different departments, whether it's human resources, or people who are more on the creative side in print, for example, so there, it's something that attracts me, where I feel good.

[00:12:33] Sandrine: It's something I did for a very long time, and a very long time ago too, where I was contacting scientists back then. So I also really like this aspect of making contact, and sometimes even in somewhat complicated environments. I also like this contact with people. So I need that, whether I see them or not, whether it's in a meeting or remotely. It's really something that motivates me. And above all, I know that behind it, a beautiful story is going to be written.

[00:13:01] Stéphane Depaepe: Geoffroy, the question is quite simple: why do you think you are made for prospecting?

[00:13:05] Geoffroy: Excellent question. I think that first, I'm not afraid to take initiative, especially to make mistakes. And so in this sense, prospecting, well I know I'm going to get noes, but I know I'm also going to get yeses. I think I've also made a habit of accepting noes, and that, one of the ways in a sense, that helps me take noes because by definition there will be noes, is telling myself that it brings me closer to the yeses. There is simply a statistical effect in the selection which means that, once you know your success ratio a little bit, ultimately if three tenths of my calls are successful, I know that if I get a no, I'm just getting closer to the three calls that will say yes to me. This statistical aspect allows me to fully absorb the noes without any problem. Perhaps the last thing to say is that I seek above all to understand and not to convince, and I think that can be felt in the calls. I don't put pressure on others, I just want clarity, I just want to position things and see if somewhere, in all honesty on their part, we go further into the information, or not. No pressure to sell since the goal is to understand.

[00:14:10] Stéphane Depaepe: Why do you think you are a good prospector.

[00:14:12] Hamza: Because I love what I do, quite simply. And because I like discussing, I like talking, I like exchanging, learning, that's it. And from the moment you love what you do, well I think you're a good prospector.

[00:14:25] Camille de Meeûs: Well yes, logically, when you're curious, fear decreases. You are no longer focused on yourself. Who is he? What is he experiencing? What is important to him? It becomes a compass, and as soon as you have understood the other person, it becomes obvious, curiosity replaces stress.

[00:14:40] Stéphane Depaepe: And developing trust, that's also something you build, it doesn't fall from the sky. Let's give a little additional technique for the curious, who by definition will make good prospectors, use the memory of success. Remember a sale, remember a good call, remember a smooth conversation.

[00:14:57] Camille de Meeûs: And as a result, exploit what you note down too, it allows you to prepare for a call.

[00:15:02] Stéphane Depaepe: Obviously the ideal is to know how to directly synthesize what your contact gave you, during the discussion, because then you will be able to immediately mirror, that is to say send back to your prospect what awaits him and he will automatically agree to move forward with you.

[00:15:16] Camille de Meeûs: Result you have reached your goal, you are happier and your next call starts in good conditions. So in fact, you will be a good prospector, a good market developer, if you know how to use what the other person tells you to move forward.

[00:15:29] Stéphane Depaepe: Let's summarize.

[00:15:29] Camille de Meeûs: Let's go!

[00:15:30] Stéphane Depaepe: You are made for prospecting if you accept uncertainty.

[00:15:34] Camille de Meeûs: Which does not prevent getting into the right state of mind before calling, you must always prepare yourself.

[00:15:38] Stéphane Depaepe: If you know yourself well enough, that you know how to understand yourself.

[00:15:42] Camille de Meeûs: Because knowing yourself is a prerequisite, it will allow you to regulate your work, feeling good in your body and good in your head.

[00:15:49] Stéphane Depaepe: If you are curious, that you like to understand, you will be a good hunter.

[00:15:53] Camille de Meeûs: Much better than the one who recites a pitch or waiting for the prospect to come. If you go looking for the information yourself, and you have understood the other person, you will quickly find what will suit both.

[00:16:03] Stéphane Depaepe: If you know how to take a hit without closing yourself off.

[00:16:06] Camille de Meeûs: In fact, you just like to bounce back and play off the other person.

[00:16:09] Stéphane Depaepe: If you know how to transform an initially cold approach, which shows your tension, into a warm approach, proving you're comfortable and know how to master the situation.

[00:16:21] Camille de Meeûs: That simply means you are confident and always open to learning new techniques.

[00:16:26] Stéphane & Camille (ensemble): Then see you very soon at PHCom...

[00:16:28] Stéphane Depaepe: And happy prospecting!

• [00:01:07] Introduction: Barriers at the first point of contact
• [00:01:30] Why these barriers often feel “invisible”
• [00:01:40] Sales is first and foremost a mindset
• [00:01:48] Dakis’ testimonial: adapting to the prospect’s tone of voice
• [00:02:19] Sandrine’s testimonial: the importance of accurate contact details
• [00:02:51] The role of reception
• [00:03:11] When you reach voicemail
• [00:03:45] Voicemail, email, multichannel: what should you do?
• [00:03:59] Dakis’ testimonial: the importance of leaving a message (or not)
• [00:04:21] Sandrine’s testimonial
• [00:05:41] Back to reception as the first gatekeeper
• [00:06:03] Differences between SMEs and large organisations
• [00:06:18] The receptionist as an ally
• [00:06:39] The professional filter: a legitimate role
• [00:06:56] The three profiles of receptionists
• [00:07:25] Adapting your tone and strategy
• [00:07:40] Preparing your objective before calling
• [00:07:52] The question: “What is this about?”
• [00:08:02] Benefit-oriented phrasing
• [00:08:32] What to avoid at all costs
• [00:08:37] Timing tip (early or late calls)
• [00:08:51] Example of a confident tone
• [00:09:02] Gaining information from every call
• [00:09:31] When the receptionist blocks access
• [00:09:40] Turning a barrier into a gateway
• [00:10:24] Practical cases: documentation requests, refusal to transfer
• [00:11:37] The TRAMAIS method
• [00:12:48] The barrier as an entry point
• [00:12:54] The receptionist as a long-term ally
• [00:13:05] Conclusion and call to share the episode

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast produced by PHCom, in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" Podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share with you our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point be website, P.H.C.O.M, and on all the good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:07] Hello everyone, and welcome to a new episode of the PHCom series, the podcast where we explore together the secrets of effective prospecting, without stress and always with a smile.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:17] And today, we're tackling the salesperson's nightmare when it comes to canvassing companies, blockages at the entrance!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:22] Those famous invisible barriers that waste your time. You feel like you're going round in circles, that you're not getting anywhere, and that you can't always talk to the right person.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:30] Why invisible?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:31] Because I get the impression that you start out thinking that you don't know who to approach, or that you're not going to get the right person on the other end of the phone. And that's what's blocking us from the start.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:40] We can't stress it enough: sales is all about the mind. Listen to what Dakis says, when asked how he approaches a company?

Dakis: [00:01:48] I'm not afraid of anything, I'm prepared for any eventuality. What I'm afraid of is that he or she won't get up on the right foot, so there's apprehension, so I'm always waiting to see which intonation will pick up on my call. And I try to adapt precisely to the prospect's vibrations, so I can get down to his level. If the person seems a little more concise, a little more in a hurry, or a little more pragmatic, I'll adapt. If the person looks relaxed, I adapt too.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:14] Well yes, I think he's right, we know it's going to work, optimism through and through.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:19] And if we go a step further, when we ask the question about the brakes, listen to what Sandrine has to say.

Sandrine: [00:02:23] If you have direct contact details, that makes life easier, seriously. After that, when we go through the switchboard, it's a matter of convincing the person that our call is useful to the company and that it's not the 1,000ᵉ call of the day that they're going to have to deal with. So you have to be able to stand out from the crowd, in terms of the message you convey, you have to be inventive, because every company is different.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:51] Finding the right person's name. And we know that in France, it's a real drag - she's a bit French, isn't she? And then there's the front desk, which may or may not want to give us the right contacts.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:01] You say the right word, she can't, that's the rule, and it's often the case at the reception. And if he doesn't want to, it's because he doesn't see the point, and that's often the case with a secretary or assistant.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:11] Now, let's say you've already got your contact's contact details, he's unavailable and you come across his voicemail.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:18] Well, let's see how to deal with this situation? Do you have the person's name and contact details? Well, it already depends on the database. So let's not talk about it too long, because it's already been covered in other episodes. In short, in PHCom Data Management's database, chances are you already have the name of the contact, otherwise you have LinkedIn, you have all the other tools that exist like Zoom-info, Loucha, le Trens, Konig, Casper, Rocket Search etc etc etc.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:45] Let's say you got the name directly, did you approach it live then?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:49] In this case, there are three possible scenarios. Voice mail, either it never answers, or you're passed on to another service. Listen to what Dakis has to say.

Dakis: [00:03:59] We're on trial for this, aren't we? We have an email process, but otherwise I leave a voicemail with an email, I always do both. This allows me to have an introduction in the e-mail, "Further to the voice message I sent you, in which I told you about this", and here I go on in the e-mail. Look, I don't have a ready-made answer either, I'm just trying to multiply the channels.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:19] I'm like Dakis, I also leave a message.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:21] Yes, Sandrine too, listen to her.

Sandrine: [00:04:23] Ah but I'm leaving a message, there's nothing worse than having, I think like everyone else, when you get a call and it's hung up you tell yourself it's not important. So people don't call back, so what I do is leave a message with my contact details, saying why I called. So, if they're not interested, they don't call back and in these cases I put in my little note to call them back a little later. And if I don't, I call back, leave a message asking them to call me back with my contact details, and customers sometimes call me back. It happened yesterday, and afterwards there was an appointment, so it's still working.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:55] Well, I'm going to surprise you: the technique of not leaving a message also applies. Because the person actually identifies a phone number and doesn't know who it is, so he calls back. And anyway, you can't leave 36 messages either, if he really doesn't reply, you really shouldn't harass, so you be the judge. Intensity, reminder frequency, leave a message, don't leave a message - it's up to you to decide what works best. Of course, if you've now been forwarded to another service, that means you've already got the person's name, you've probably already left messages, so you've got plenty of reasons to have a chat with the person you're talking to. Take the opportunity to prepare for a future call, gather information from colleagues, so you can really use all this information when you actually make contact with the right person.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:41] Back to the classic barrage: reception or secretary?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:44] Okay, let's make the distinction right away: small businesses, SMEs, large companies. Their role is to dispatch calls, but they're not the ones who really put up a barrier, except when it comes to disclosing or not disclosing people's names, and that depends on the rules established by the company.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:03] For small businesses, there isn't really a reception desk, but a Mr or Mrs X or Y who can answer in place of the person I want to reach. Again, this person can give me information and tell me when it's best to approach my contact.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:18] Ok, so let's effectively consider this person as an assistant, or a secretary, or conversely, a secretary or an assistant. They're not enemies, they're allies. The mind, the mind, the mind.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:31] Exactly. So let's see how we can get around it, or better still, how we can get them to play on our side.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:39] First of all, let's put things into perspective: when we talk about a dam, we're talking about a professional filter. The secretary's role is really to protect her boss's time, not to annoy you.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:48] Yes, it's a bit like the front door of the castle: if you arrive without an invitation, without a clear reason or by slamming the door, she's bound not to let you through.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:56] And there are many different types of secretary. First, the very methodical, very precise "executive profile" secretary, who handles every call like a military operation. Impossible to pass without a real good justification.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:08] Then there's the "administrative secretary", who is more procedural and follows the rules. You call, she transfers or not according to protocol, no room for improvisation.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:17] And then there's the "cautious" one, the one who's already had negative feedback and in fact no longer takes any risks. So if she doesn't know your name, it's a no-go.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:25] That's why you need to adapt your tone, and your strategy, to each profile. When a secretary is stressed, suspicious or under pressure, you can immediately hear it in her voice.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:34] Yes, and that's where the smart salesman comes into his own. Because it's benevolent, because it's calm, because it's reassuring.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:40] Before you call, be clear about your objective: who you want to reach, why and in what capacity? Remember, you're always the first impression you make on the company. So be professional, courteous and confident.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:52] And prepare your answer to the famous question "What's it about?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:57] Ah yes, that moment when it all comes down to it. Here, you need to be precise without being too talkative.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:02] Exactly, "I call it a solution that helps companies reduce their international communication costs". It's clear, it's clean.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:08] Or "I'm following up on a previous exchange about optimizing internal processes".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:13] The key is to use a sentence that's focused on benefiting the company, not yourself. Avoid vague formulations such as "I would like to speak with ....". About a project where...", or even worse, "I'm calling Monsieur So-and-so, it's personal" (Camille de Meeûs: Ah yes), never do that.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:32] Oh yes, that's a direct red card. We never lie, let's not forget, we're B2B.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:37] Here's a little tip: play with timing. Call early in the morning, before 9 a.m., or late in the day, after 5 p.m. - it's often quieter.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:44] Yes, at such times, the manager is sometimes at his desk, the secretary not yet, or already gone. Timing is everything.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:51] And if you run into her, well okay, you'll be able to sound confident, not dominant. Example: "Hello, Stéphane Performance for Camille Harmonie please, I'm calling to schedule an appointment".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:02] We don't ask "Could I maybe talk to him?". No, you calmly say "I'd like to speak to Mr. Thing" or again, if you don't have the name, "I'd like to speak to the person responsible for". And here, the key lies in gathering information. Find out his name, what time he comes to work, whether or not the company has worked with this type of service before. And don't forget, every call is a source of enriching information, and this will enable you to best prepare your contact with the person you're targeting.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:31] What if it blocks you? Well, never mind, we'll keep smiling and bounce back "I understand he's very busy. Maybe you can help me get a message across?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:40] And then you enhance it, turning the dam into a footbridge.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:43] That's right, it's the status game. In fact, you must always be at the same status as the person you're targeting. But at the same time, you can't be more than a secretary. So put yourself on her level, listen to her, find a way to collaborate with her, either real or... Use ice breakers, talk about something else, make this person an ally, even a friend, call them by their first name after all. Ask him his first name, and ask him some useful questions: "By the way, what's the best time to contact him or her? Is he in meetings all day, or more available in the early afternoon?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:20] And once again, make a note of everything - this information is worth its weight in gold for your next call.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:24] Okay, let's talk about a few practical cases, like "Send me some documentation first, I'll pass it on". Classic mistake: we obey. So especially if he says "Yes, send it to me info at..." Mmm, the generic email address.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:39] Yeah, and in that case, the mail often ends up in the junk folder or is even forgotten. But sometimes it can happen too, depending on the structure, whether it's small or large.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:49] I offer you a response profile, "Send me some documentation". "Yes, of course, I understand, it's precisely to make this documentation useful that I need to get a better idea of your needs. That's why a brief exchange with Mr. Machintruc Bazar would be much more pertinent".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:04] And if she insists, we listen and move on to other things. A face-to-face exchange is much nicer than an e-mail exchange in today's world, so let's take our time and see what synergies are possible.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:16] Yeah. Another case, the most classic, she really doesn't want to give the name of the caller. You can also bounce back like "Oh yes, I understand, it's your procedure, but can you maybe just confirm that this is the purchasing manager?" For example. Talk to her, get her to talk, she can give you lots of information.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:11:37] Or "I was in contact with Mr. So-and-so. What exactly is its role? And sometimes, by calmly asking the right questions, you get a lot more than you bargained for. Now we're going to give you a little mnemonic tool, the "Tramais" method, to remind you of everything we've just explained in this podcast.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:53] Yes, you never know what might be lurking around the corner, do you? So cram "T" like timing, call at the right time, choose the hours between 8am, 10am, after 5pm, at noon . "R" for relationship, stay respectful, nice, relaxed. "A" for a good attitude, stay confident, neither arrogant nor submissive. "M" For words, choose your vocabulary clear, clean, professional. "A" for help, involve the secretary in the success of your call, she can really be a tool. By the way, what's his job? It's helping, she likes helping, so ask her "Can you help me?". "I" For information, take advantage of the exchange to glean lots of useful information, and "S" for what comes next, always prepare what comes next: a reminder, an appointment, a follow-up - the "Tramais" method works!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:48] Well, if you've applied these seven points, the secretary's dam will become a real privileged gateway.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:54] And remember, a secretary is a good storyteller, often an ally for life.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:12:57] Thank you all for following us, and if you enjoyed this episode, please share it with your colleagues who are still battling with the Standard every day.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:05] Or better still, send the podcast to your favorite secretary, she'll love it.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:09] See you soon for another episode.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:10] Above all, keep Performance and Harmony in mind.

• [00:01:07] Introduction to the topic: the lexicon of expression
• [00:01:31] 1. “Belly-on-the-floor” expressions
• [00:02:09] The four Toltec agreements
• [00:03:24] Examples of “belly-on-the-floor” expressions
• [00:03:48] The ideal rephrasing?
• [00:04:09] Energy shift through a proposal
• [00:04:30] 2. Hesitant expressions
• [00:05:34] 3. Dark words
• [00:05:44] 4. Barbed-wire words
• [00:06:11] Words and the weight of words
• [00:06:42] The little daily bombs
• [00:06:56] Words that elevate the conversation
• [00:07:21] Words that speak about the client, not the seller
• [00:07:34] Cicero’s three pillars
• [00:07:59] How to correct yourself concretely
• [00:08:25] How to train
• [00:08:49] In summary
• [00:09:23] A small challenge
• [00:09:36] Episode closing

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the podcast "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio using the techniques of "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers, as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share with you our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point be website, P.H.C.O.M, and on all the good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on phcom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:07] Hello everyone, welcome to "Performance, Harmonie & Commercial", the podcast where we talk about prospecting, sales, but above all human relations.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:15] And today, we're going to talk about something that may seem insignificant but changes everything: words. The words we use on the phone, in appointments, in customer follow-up. Because the right word opens doors. A clumsy word slams them in the face, sometimes!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:31] Exactly. You know I was listening to a prospecting recording recently the other day, and the salesman starts with: "Hello sir, may I disturb you for two minutes". And there, I assure you, I felt the door close even before the first sentence!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:43] Classic. The guy wanted to be polite and turned into a nuisance. It's typical of flat-bellied expressions: we apologize for existing when we've come to offer value. So behind the attitude, there are words, and words are creators, words create situations. Let's take a look at what not to say, and more importantly, what to say. It's a state of mind we're taking you towards.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:09] Aren't we talking about the Four Toltec Agreements?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:12] Let's take a look at this Central American people who, around the year 1000 AD, set out to establish a code of conduct for living a free and fulfilled life.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:22] The first agreement is that your word be impeccable, and that's really the topic of the day.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:27] And the second, and third, are also in line with the subject, and in perfect continuity with the treatment of objections we talked about in the previous episode. Secondly, whatever happens, don't take it personally. In short, don't judge yourself. And the third, don't make assumptions, means try to understand, Dig.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:02:49] And fourth, always do your best, i.e. commit yourself fully to your actions, but realistically and without perfectionism. So just learn, move on, correct, improve by listening to yourself, but above all don't put too much pressure on yourself. As a result, these principles aim to free individuals from limiting beliefs and collective conditioning, thus promoting inner peace and unconditional love.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:15] Okay, it's beautiful. There's also a fifth Toltec agreement: Be skeptical, but learn to listen. So welcome to this episode, stay tuned!

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:24] So let's start with the one you were talking about: flat-bellied expressions that put us in a position of inferiority. For example, I'll give you a few sample sentences: "Sorry to bother you, but I won't waste too much of your time, don't worry. I'm sorry, it's really not my fault".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:39] Phrases full of good intentions but which undermine your credibility. Because by saying "I'm bothering you", you program the other person to think "Yes, indeed, you're bothering me".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:48] What would be the ideal reformulation for you?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:51] Not with what's in your head. You're not bothering him, because you've got a solution for him. So you might say, "I'm calling because I've got an idea that might save you some time on this subject".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:05] And "I won't waste too much of your time, don't worry". So what's in it for you?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:09] "I may have a solution for your business. I have something that will please you. I have something to brighten your day". We're no longer begging, we're proposing.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:19] And that's the key: we sell help, not intrusion. Help means not putting yourself on the same level as the other person, neither below nor too far above them. Don't patronize him either.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:30] Second category: doubtful expressions. You know, all those little words of doubt that sabotage confidence without us even realizing it.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:04:40] Ah yes, I can see that. The maybe, possibly, if possible, I think, I think, when you say "I think our solution is interesting", the customer hears "He's not sure himself".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:52] But "I'm convinced this is the right approach" changes everything. Look, "I think this is a good time to talk about it"...pfff Not good. "It's the right time to judge the effectiveness of this type of solution", now you're convincing. And in fact, to be convincing, you have to be convinced.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:10] Exactly. And it's really the same with the conditional. "I would have liked to know if you had desired", then there, it is really the festival of the doubt. Replace the whole thing with the present asserted, "I suggest you meet our representative next week".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:25] Again, if I doubt, he'll doubt too.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:28] That's right, it's like a verbal contagion: your certainty gives you confidence and your hesitation scares you away.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:34] Third category: black words. Those who install a negative logic. They flay, they tense, they trigger defensiveness.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:05:44] We can also call them barbed wire words, for example: Problem, complaint, error, never, impossible, risk. So many words that make our stress levels rise.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:55] Exactly. If you say "You run no risk", the customer just hears the word risk. I don't know if you've noticed, but there are always "R's" in those "barbed wire" words.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:05] Whereas a simple "Our system works safely" puts everyone at ease, it's easier, it's more obvious.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:11] Same thing with words like: costs, expenses. These words can become: investment. Or problem, well, it can become a question, a specific request.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:22] And then my favorite is: "Don't worry", it's really the best way to worry someone. In this case, it's better to say "Our team ensures your complete satisfaction".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:33] Last example, "I don't know". Well, no, I don't know, it becomes "I'll find out and call you back". It's simple, it's professional, it's reassuring.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:06:42] And let's not forget the little bombs of everyday life. "But no, you're making a mistake", It's perceived as an aggression. On the other hand, "You might think that, but it's precisely our solution that answers that question", and that's where we clearly keep the customer in the discussion.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:56] Well, after you've eliminated the toxic words, the ones that bring doubt, or put you at a disadvantage. Let's talk about words that elevate the conversation.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:06] Yes, these are the positive, clear and above all solution-oriented words. Words that inspire confidence include: improve, simplify, optimize, adapt, win, streamline and secure.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:21] And above all, words that speak to the customer, not the salesperson. Your team, your objectives, your efficiency. When we say "you", we create a bond. When we say "I", we're talking about ourselves.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:34] And in rhetoric, we find the three pillars of my dear friend Cicero. One, ethos, meaning credibility, professional and precise words. Two, pathos, emotion, a tone that is sincere and positive. Three, logos, logic, a discourse that is clear, concrete and structured.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:52] It's the trilogy of the salesman who speaks his mind. We already talked about this in the episode "How to make a good argument?"

Camille de Meeûs: [00:07:59] So we know what to avoid, we know what to say... But how do you actually correct yourself?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:05] A simple method: Register.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:07] Ah yes, it's true that we all think we speak well, until we listen to ourselves. And that's when we discover our "heu's", our "I think so's", our "I've just got a quick question".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:17] The idea is to identify these stray words, rephrase them, and practice speaking with strong, positive, precise words.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:25] But how do you go about training? What tips could you share to help you evolve in all circumstances to use the right words that will put the other person more at ease.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:33] It's a real mental workout. Choosing your words also means choosing your posture. With an assertive, respectful, clear posture, so it's first in your head, do you approach your day positively? How can you put yourself in a positive frame of mind first thing in the morning?

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:49] Yes, it's true, when it comes to posture, I knew someone who put a mirror in front of his desk to remind him to smile. Maybe just remember the Four Toltec Agreements? So, in short, banish belly-flat expressions, replace doubt with conviction, avoid black words and choose clear ones instead, and practice speaking like someone who brings value.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:09] So, yes, be comfortable in your head, be well prepared, and write your good words. Because in the end, words are the music of trust. And customers can't be bought, they have to be given.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:23] Wonderful sentence. And as always, we leave you with a little challenge: this week, record one of your conversations, and count how many times you say "maybe", "sorry" or "no problem", you'll see, it's quite revealing.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:36] That's more of a challenge than a small one. See you soon for another episode of "Performance, Harmony & Commercial". And until then, remember, good words make good sales. So I'll leave you with one last word: subscribe, enjoy and learn.

• [00:01:07] Introduction: the right pitch
• [00:01:29] Sophie Dive, market developer
• [00:02:12] Sophie Dive’s advice
• [00:02:29] A recent example
• [00:03:15] The CSAQ
• [00:03:54] Bruno Cox, market developer
• [00:04:15] An argument that works well
• [00:04:41] A bad argument
• [00:04:51] Bruno Cox’s advice
• [00:05:45] A recent example
• [00:06:18] What makes the difference?
• [00:06:48] Can you create a need?
• [00:07:56] Building bridges with your conversation partner
• [00:08:16] The four pillars of rhetoric
• [00:09:24] Continuing with Cicero
• [00:10:54] Marc Pottiez, market developer
• [00:11:36] When do you propose a meeting?
• [00:11:51] An argument that works well
• [00:12:06] Marc Pottiez’s advice
• [00:12:18] In case of refusal
• [00:12:31] A recent example
• [00:13:01] What tipped the balance?
• [00:13:24] C.C.C: Clear, Short, Concise
• [00:13:32] Understanding your conversation partner
• [00:14:13] “No” is not the end
• [00:14:36] Announcement of the next topic
• [00:14:58] Conclusion and end of the episode

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point Be P.H.C.O.M website, and also on all good podcast platforms.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:48] You can support this podcast and promote its visibility by sharing it with as many people as possible via a like, comment or share.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:55] The answering machine is always open so that you can leave us a message, which we'll be delighted to answer.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:07] Hello everyone, welcome to PHCom, the podcast that boosts your sales performance while keeping your balance. I'm Mr. Performance.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:16] And I'm Mrs. Harmonie, and today we're going to talk about a little-forgotten yet essential art: the art of good argumentation. And yes, because good argumentation isn't just talking loud to be right.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:29] Exactly, it's a whole skill set. And to let us know, we put the question to a few market developers and prospectors, and here's what they had to say. Sophie Dive, what makes a good sales pitch?

Sophie Dive: [00:01:42] A good argument is one that touches your interlocutor, that makes your argument relevant, and that meets an expectation.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:51] What's the difference between an argument that goes down well and one that doesn't?

Sophie Dive: [00:01:54] In my opinion, you can't beat around the bush, you have to speak directly, because people don't have time on the phone. So you have to be pragmatic, results-oriented in your head, and not at all aggressive.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:12] Okay, you've got something you use.

Sophie Dive: [00:02:14] The voice is really the voice and the smile in the voice, and the speech. In any case, the feedback I get from customers is "Yes, we spoke to Sophie on the phone, we didn't get too many, too many details, but it made us want to meet you". It's about making people want to meet you.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:29] Do you have a recent example? You've just made an appointment.

Sophie Dive: [00:02:31] Here we are, with a finance manager. Hamza launched a new strategy that was quite successful for my colleague, and so here we are touching on the CFOs. The very open-minded gentleman seemed quite interested in the appointment because he accepted straight away. I sensed a certain questioning, and the argument that prompted me to make the appointment was: "Would you accept a free diagnosis? And "Yes", because it's free, because it doesn't commit you to anything. But what's important for our customer is that we've opened the door, he's entered our prospect's home, and now it's up to our customer to sell his product.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:09] Waouh! That's a really great summary! Indeed, she puts the words where and how they're needed.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:15] Yes, I would have liked to hear him talk about the CSAQ too.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:19] It's true that we've talked about this before. CSAQ stands for "Characteristics", which means that, your Advantage is, and a Question to validate that what I've said has gone through. It's a kind of guideline for presenting a proposal.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:33] And for this proposal to be successful, you need to think first and foremost about the person you're talking to, his or her needs, obstacles and motivations. Argument is clearly not about imposing ideas, it's about building a bridge to the other person.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:45] Very poetic, Mr. Performance, but very true. By the way, you've asked another prospecting manager a few questions on this very subject. We can listen to it together!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:54] Bruno Cox, what do you consider a good sales pitch?

Bruno Cox: [00:03:58] It's already having been able to identify the customer's needs, answer the customer's relevant questions, with fluidity, with the elements that can indeed be decisive in securing an appointment, attracting the customer's attention, attracting the customer's interest, that's it.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:15] What's a good or bad argument, after all?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:18] For me, the right argument is to have already analyzed the company's situation a little. And above all, the right argument for me is to be able to really meet a company's real needs and expectations. Now we need to know whether the company has needs or not. It means asking the right questions, asking open-ended questions to try and identify as much information as possible, and as many needs or expectations as possible.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:41] A bad argument, then?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:43] A bad argument is working only with closed questions. Because you don't receive any information, and it's to block you directly from a customer objection.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:51] Do you have a trick up your sleeve that makes it work?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:53] In any case, I try to have a clear but short introduction. So I'll give a short introduction, and then I'll ask the first open question directly. And at that point, it allows me to have a dialogue, to be able to exchange ideas with the customer in any case. And I try to go through the various questions that help identify needs once again. I don't have a particular trick, but let's just say that as a general rule, I'd say my introduction goes down well because it's fluid, because you can see there's no hesitation, because I use a tone that's reassuring too. I don't do hard selling, so you can see straight away that this isn't a call-center with a detailed script, etc. I adapt the script to the person I'm talking to, to their receptiveness and to any interests they show.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:45] As part of the appointment process. A recent example where you say to yourself "Ok, that worked well".

Bruno Cox: [00:05:51] Well, yes, I had two appointments yesterday. My introduction was very simple, I said "Am I in contact with Mr. So-and-so, head of maintenance? He says "Yes" and I ask him "Do you have two or three minutes to spare for me? He says "Yes, I'm listening", and I say "Well, we specialize in all aspects of preventive maintenance and energy optimization, and I'd like to know what type of machine you have on site and what problems, if any, you're experiencing...". And then the speech begins. And he's open to discussion.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:18] When you propose a meeting, what should make the difference?

Bruno Cox: [00:06:21] Well, once I sense that there's an interest, once I sense that they're in a phase of change or optimization, I say "Listen, but I think that in relation to all the elements you've just mentioned to me, a site visit would be interesting so that we can demonstrate the technology we're using and possibly do a needs analysis, and even more perhaps do an optimization of what you're using today. So I think an on-site visit would be really interesting. Are you open to this proposal? And then they say, "Well yes, I'm interested".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:48] Ok, super. The question I've been asking myself for the past 20 years is whether we should identify an existing need, or whether we can create one.

Bruno Cox: [00:06:55] We can create a need!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:57] But how?

Bruno Cox: [00:06:58] By asking the right questions, by saying, "Do you use maintenance? If so, what type of maintenance? Are you currently happy with the maintenance that's being implemented? Do you have your own maintenance team or do you call in outside companies for this type of maintenance? Ah, but listen..." And then there are the arguments: "So, from an energy point of view, where are you? Is your consumption high or not? Ah well, you know, the intelligent sensors we install directly in electrical cabinets enable you to have 24/7 monitoring, which guarantees continuous, reliable data. What's more, it saves you 15% in energy costs". "Ah, that interests me!"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:37] Okay, beautiful, I'm interested too.

Bruno Cox: [00:07:40] So, there are people who will indeed tell you they have an interest, and there are people who will indeed have to be aroused. And that, of course, is why we have standard questions, which enable us to identify whether there is indeed an interest, whereas at the outset he may not tell you that there is an interest, or he may not have identified the need, even though there may be one!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:56] In fact. So we were talking about building bridges with the person you're talking to, clearly through their needs, and that also means knowing what you want to say.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:06] So have a very clear objective.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:08] And avoid the blah trap. Argumentation is clearly not a contest of words. Better a well-chosen argument than a firework display of banalities.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:16] And the Greeks had already figured it out. The four pillars of rhetoric?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:21] With pleasure. The famous quartet: logos, ethos, pathos... And the latest: Kairos.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:29] Let's go one at a time. Logos means logic, facts, figures, rational arguments. Example: "No studies recommend this method, so it's ineffective", simple, clear and short. We've also already talked about the truths you can incorporate into your script.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:47] Then, with Ethos, we play the credibility card: "I'm the expert, I have the experience, you can trust me".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:54] Pathos is more about emotion. It's never too late to find meaning in what we do". And it only works if it's sincere.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:02] And finally, Kairos: the right tone. Because a great sales pitch at the wrong time is like offering an umbrella when it's 30 degrees out. In fact, I usually say that you have to start arguing when you've understood everything. I've understood: who my contact is, how he works, what his business needs are, and therefore how I'm going to offer him what I have to offer.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:24] Let's continue with the Greeks. Cicero had already established five precepts, so let's share them together?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:30] So number one: "Inventio", to come up with hard-hitting ideas, of course! But also "Dispositio", i.e. to assemble ideas, to create a coherent discourse.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:42] There's also the "Elocutio" to formulate them with style. It's really the use of images, words, turns of phrase, sentences and styles that really fit. For Cicero, "Elocutio" is characterized by four qualities: correctness, clarity, elegance and relevance. The style used - simple, medium or high - must be adapted to the circumstances and the audience.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:05] There's also the "Actio", i.e. to embody with voice and body, that's oratorical action. It's really about putting your speech into action, i.e. embodying it in front of your audience, or on the phone with the person you're speaking to. Through voice modulation, intonation and gestures. In fact, at this point, the speaker can demonstrate his or her conviction in order to maintain attention and achieve his or her objective. If the "Actio" is lacking, well, the argument will inexorably lose effectiveness, hence the importance of taking the trouble to work on this point in particular.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:39] And then there's "Memoria", the ability to remember what you've said. In training, step by step, argument by argument, without needing to give notes. To achieve this, the speaker can use a variety of techniques, such as mnemonics!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:54] Well, in the end, you have to be able to talk without reading a text, otherwise the exchange becomes cold, and that's exactly what Bruno was saying. Let's listen to a third interview, with Marc, which may shed a little more light: Marc Potier. What makes a good sales pitch?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:09] For me, a good argument is first and foremost an argument that relates to the person in front of me. Firstly, by the tone of voice, which is a pleasant, professional tone. I always thank "Ben voilà, thank you for taking the call", I always start like that, and "I'm calling you as part of...". So at this point I introduce the company, and then briefly outline the purpose of the call, and let the person speak at this point, it's a bit of a standard sales pitch.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:36] And at what point do you propose to meet, or not?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:39] As soon as the message has been passed on and I have the prospect's response, well, as soon as the prospect seems to understand what I'm saying and to be interested, then I'm going to propose a meeting.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:51] And what is the argument for proposing this meeting?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:55] It's a sign of interest in what we're offering as a service. In general, it's services, so as soon as he shows interest in the service, I say, "Well, can our sales manager meet with you about this?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:06] Okay, do you have anything, specifically, that you use?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:09] Non. The question is simple: "Well, at this point, can Caroline, who represents us here, stop by your place if you like, in the next few days or weeks? Does that suit you?" Something like that.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:18] And when he says "No", do you have any arguments against it?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:21] Yes, "You say no, no to what? So it's the period that's not working? Is there something else that isn't working for you? Would you prefer another time? Perhaps you'd prefer a video meeting, via Teams for example?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:31] You booked an appointment with a hospital for a debt collection customer. What made it work?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:37] First of all, the surprising thing was that I called him on his landline, because there was no access to his direct phone, so he answered, to my great pleasure and satisfaction. But look, here, given that he's a CFO, the services we were looking to offer seemed to interest him, particularly for debt repurchasing. This particular approach appealed to him, so he made an appointment.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:01] What made him accept the appointment? Why did he like it after all?

Marc Pottiez: [00:13:04] The idea of having a company of our size, our looks, our experience and our specificity in his sector of activity meant that the question of a takeover seemed interesting to him to discuss, and that's why he made the appointment.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:24] Beautiful! Thank you for this exchange Marc. We can sum it up with our good old "CCC": Clear, Short, Concise, no need to say too much, just right.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:32] And to be fair, you have to understand the person you're talking to. Are these drivers: sympathy, pride, novelty, comfort, money or security? We need to adapt our approach to each individual case.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:46] And also according to its profile, the way it works. Is it a person of action, reasoning, relationships, reflection? Is it open or closed? Because if it's closed, you'll have to reassure it first, for example. Well, all these good practices need to be put into practice at a given moment, in the here and now.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:08] Well yes, we don't argue in general, we argue for someone, it's tailor-made.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:13] Indeed, it's the key to the argument. Now, sometimes that person says "No", but a no is not the end, it's the beginning of the counter-argument.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:23] Yes, a no can simply mean "I didn't understand, I have another priority". Or "I'm just scared". It's up to us to decode it. Is this a real objection, a real misunderstanding? Or passive resistance?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:36] And here again, there's no ready-made speech. We listen, we adjust, we rephrase, we create an exchange, not a recitation. Of course, there are also techniques for counter-arguing, but that's for a future podcast.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:49] That's what good telephone argumentation is all about: listening, understanding, adapting, aiming and, above all, the desire to convince without forcing the issue.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:58] In short, be strategic, be human and be clear.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:01] Thanks for listening, and don't forget, if this episode has inspired you, share it, write it down or, better still, practice arguing like Cicero.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:15:10] See you soon on PHCom, the business intelligence podcast.