• [00:01:07] Introduction: the right pitch
• [00:01:29] Sophie Dive, market developer
• [00:02:12] Sophie Dive’s advice
• [00:02:29] A recent example
• [00:03:15] The CSAQ
• [00:03:54] Bruno Cox, market developer
• [00:04:15] An argument that works well
• [00:04:41] A bad argument
• [00:04:51] Bruno Cox’s advice
• [00:05:45] A recent example
• [00:06:18] What makes the difference?
• [00:06:48] Can you create a need?
• [00:07:56] Building bridges with your conversation partner
• [00:08:16] The four pillars of rhetoric
• [00:09:24] Continuing with Cicero
• [00:10:54] Marc Pottiez, market developer
• [00:11:36] When do you propose a meeting?
• [00:11:51] An argument that works well
• [00:12:06] Marc Pottiez’s advice
• [00:12:18] In case of refusal
• [00:12:31] A recent example
• [00:13:01] What tipped the balance?
• [00:13:24] C.C.C: Clear, Short, Concise
• [00:13:32] Understanding your conversation partner
• [00:14:13] “No” is not the end
• [00:14:36] Announcement of the next topic
• [00:14:58] Conclusion and end of the episode

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:13] Hello and welcome to another episode of the "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast, produced by PHCom in the "transforma bxl" studio, with technical support from "The Podcast Factory Org".

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:23] The "Performance, Harmony & Commercial" podcast is aimed at marketing and sales managers as well as company executives with commercial responsibilities.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:00:32] Every month, we share our best practices in finding new customers for business-to-business companies.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:00:38] You can find each episode on the PHCom point Be P.H.C.O.M website, and also on all good podcast platforms.

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Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:00] You can also book an appointment directly with Nadia or Stéphane on PHCom dot be.

Nadia Ben Jelloun: [00:01:06] See you soon.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:07] Hello everyone, welcome to PHCom, the podcast that boosts your sales performance while keeping your balance. I'm Mr. Performance.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:01:16] And I'm Mrs. Harmonie, and today we're going to talk about a little-forgotten yet essential art: the art of good argumentation. And yes, because good argumentation isn't just talking loud to be right.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:29] Exactly, it's a whole skill set. And to let us know, we put the question to a few market developers and prospectors, and here's what they had to say. Sophie Dive, what makes a good sales pitch?

Sophie Dive: [00:01:42] A good argument is one that touches your interlocutor, that makes your argument relevant, and that meets an expectation.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:01:51] What's the difference between an argument that goes down well and one that doesn't?

Sophie Dive: [00:01:54] In my opinion, you can't beat around the bush, you have to speak directly, because people don't have time on the phone. So you have to be pragmatic, results-oriented in your head, and not at all aggressive.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:12] Okay, you've got something you use.

Sophie Dive: [00:02:14] The voice is really the voice and the smile in the voice, and the speech. In any case, the feedback I get from customers is "Yes, we spoke to Sophie on the phone, we didn't get too many, too many details, but it made us want to meet you". It's about making people want to meet you.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:02:29] Do you have a recent example? You've just made an appointment.

Sophie Dive: [00:02:31] Here we are, with a finance manager. Hamza launched a new strategy that was quite successful for my colleague, and so here we are touching on the CFOs. The very open-minded gentleman seemed quite interested in the appointment because he accepted straight away. I sensed a certain questioning, and the argument that prompted me to make the appointment was: "Would you accept a free diagnosis? And "Yes", because it's free, because it doesn't commit you to anything. But what's important for our customer is that we've opened the door, he's entered our prospect's home, and now it's up to our customer to sell his product.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:09] Waouh! That's a really great summary! Indeed, she puts the words where and how they're needed.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:15] Yes, I would have liked to hear him talk about the CSAQ too.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:19] It's true that we've talked about this before. CSAQ stands for "Characteristics", which means that, your Advantage is, and a Question to validate that what I've said has gone through. It's a kind of guideline for presenting a proposal.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:33] And for this proposal to be successful, you need to think first and foremost about the person you're talking to, his or her needs, obstacles and motivations. Argument is clearly not about imposing ideas, it's about building a bridge to the other person.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:03:45] Very poetic, Mr. Performance, but very true. By the way, you've asked another prospecting manager a few questions on this very subject. We can listen to it together!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:03:54] Bruno Cox, what do you consider a good sales pitch?

Bruno Cox: [00:03:58] It's already having been able to identify the customer's needs, answer the customer's relevant questions, with fluidity, with the elements that can indeed be decisive in securing an appointment, attracting the customer's attention, attracting the customer's interest, that's it.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:15] What's a good or bad argument, after all?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:18] For me, the right argument is to have already analyzed the company's situation a little. And above all, the right argument for me is to be able to really meet a company's real needs and expectations. Now we need to know whether the company has needs or not. It means asking the right questions, asking open-ended questions to try and identify as much information as possible, and as many needs or expectations as possible.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:41] A bad argument, then?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:43] A bad argument is working only with closed questions. Because you don't receive any information, and it's to block you directly from a customer objection.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:04:51] Do you have a trick up your sleeve that makes it work?

Bruno Cox: [00:04:53] In any case, I try to have a clear but short introduction. So I'll give a short introduction, and then I'll ask the first open question directly. And at that point, it allows me to have a dialogue, to be able to exchange ideas with the customer in any case. And I try to go through the various questions that help identify needs once again. I don't have a particular trick, but let's just say that as a general rule, I'd say my introduction goes down well because it's fluid, because you can see there's no hesitation, because I use a tone that's reassuring too. I don't do hard selling, so you can see straight away that this isn't a call-center with a detailed script, etc. I adapt the script to the person I'm talking to, to their receptiveness and to any interests they show.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:05:45] As part of the appointment process. A recent example where you say to yourself "Ok, that worked well".

Bruno Cox: [00:05:51] Well, yes, I had two appointments yesterday. My introduction was very simple, I said "Am I in contact with Mr. So-and-so, head of maintenance? He says "Yes" and I ask him "Do you have two or three minutes to spare for me? He says "Yes, I'm listening", and I say "Well, we specialize in all aspects of preventive maintenance and energy optimization, and I'd like to know what type of machine you have on site and what problems, if any, you're experiencing...". And then the speech begins. And he's open to discussion.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:18] When you propose a meeting, what should make the difference?

Bruno Cox: [00:06:21] Well, once I sense that there's an interest, once I sense that they're in a phase of change or optimization, I say "Listen, but I think that in relation to all the elements you've just mentioned to me, a site visit would be interesting so that we can demonstrate the technology we're using and possibly do a needs analysis, and even more perhaps do an optimization of what you're using today. So I think an on-site visit would be really interesting. Are you open to this proposal? And then they say, "Well yes, I'm interested".

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:48] Ok, super. The question I've been asking myself for the past 20 years is whether we should identify an existing need, or whether we can create one.

Bruno Cox: [00:06:55] We can create a need!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:06:57] But how?

Bruno Cox: [00:06:58] By asking the right questions, by saying, "Do you use maintenance? If so, what type of maintenance? Are you currently happy with the maintenance that's being implemented? Do you have your own maintenance team or do you call in outside companies for this type of maintenance? Ah, but listen..." And then there are the arguments: "So, from an energy point of view, where are you? Is your consumption high or not? Ah well, you know, the intelligent sensors we install directly in electrical cabinets enable you to have 24/7 monitoring, which guarantees continuous, reliable data. What's more, it saves you 15% in energy costs". "Ah, that interests me!"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:37] Okay, beautiful, I'm interested too.

Bruno Cox: [00:07:40] So, there are people who will indeed tell you they have an interest, and there are people who will indeed have to be aroused. And that, of course, is why we have standard questions, which enable us to identify whether there is indeed an interest, whereas at the outset he may not tell you that there is an interest, or he may not have identified the need, even though there may be one!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:07:56] In fact. So we were talking about building bridges with the person you're talking to, clearly through their needs, and that also means knowing what you want to say.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:06] So have a very clear objective.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:08] And avoid the blah trap. Argumentation is clearly not a contest of words. Better a well-chosen argument than a firework display of banalities.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:16] And the Greeks had already figured it out. The four pillars of rhetoric?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:21] With pleasure. The famous quartet: logos, ethos, pathos... And the latest: Kairos.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:29] Let's go one at a time. Logos means logic, facts, figures, rational arguments. Example: "No studies recommend this method, so it's ineffective", simple, clear and short. We've also already talked about the truths you can incorporate into your script.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:08:47] Then, with Ethos, we play the credibility card: "I'm the expert, I have the experience, you can trust me".

Camille de Meeûs: [00:08:54] Pathos is more about emotion. It's never too late to find meaning in what we do". And it only works if it's sincere.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:02] And finally, Kairos: the right tone. Because a great sales pitch at the wrong time is like offering an umbrella when it's 30 degrees out. In fact, I usually say that you have to start arguing when you've understood everything. I've understood: who my contact is, how he works, what his business needs are, and therefore how I'm going to offer him what I have to offer.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:24] Let's continue with the Greeks. Cicero had already established five precepts, so let's share them together?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:09:30] So number one: "Inventio", to come up with hard-hitting ideas, of course! But also "Dispositio", i.e. to assemble ideas, to create a coherent discourse.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:09:42] There's also the "Elocutio" to formulate them with style. It's really the use of images, words, turns of phrase, sentences and styles that really fit. For Cicero, "Elocutio" is characterized by four qualities: correctness, clarity, elegance and relevance. The style used - simple, medium or high - must be adapted to the circumstances and the audience.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:05] There's also the "Actio", i.e. to embody with voice and body, that's oratorical action. It's really about putting your speech into action, i.e. embodying it in front of your audience, or on the phone with the person you're speaking to. Through voice modulation, intonation and gestures. In fact, at this point, the speaker can demonstrate his or her conviction in order to maintain attention and achieve his or her objective. If the "Actio" is lacking, well, the argument will inexorably lose effectiveness, hence the importance of taking the trouble to work on this point in particular.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:10:39] And then there's "Memoria", the ability to remember what you've said. In training, step by step, argument by argument, without needing to give notes. To achieve this, the speaker can use a variety of techniques, such as mnemonics!

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:10:54] Well, in the end, you have to be able to talk without reading a text, otherwise the exchange becomes cold, and that's exactly what Bruno was saying. Let's listen to a third interview, with Marc, which may shed a little more light: Marc Potier. What makes a good sales pitch?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:09] For me, a good argument is first and foremost an argument that relates to the person in front of me. Firstly, by the tone of voice, which is a pleasant, professional tone. I always thank "Ben voilà, thank you for taking the call", I always start like that, and "I'm calling you as part of...". So at this point I introduce the company, and then briefly outline the purpose of the call, and let the person speak at this point, it's a bit of a standard sales pitch.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:36] And at what point do you propose to meet, or not?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:39] As soon as the message has been passed on and I have the prospect's response, well, as soon as the prospect seems to understand what I'm saying and to be interested, then I'm going to propose a meeting.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:11:51] And what is the argument for proposing this meeting?

Marc Pottiez: [00:11:55] It's a sign of interest in what we're offering as a service. In general, it's services, so as soon as he shows interest in the service, I say, "Well, can our sales manager meet with you about this?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:06] Okay, do you have anything, specifically, that you use?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:09] Non. The question is simple: "Well, at this point, can Caroline, who represents us here, stop by your place if you like, in the next few days or weeks? Does that suit you?" Something like that.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:18] And when he says "No", do you have any arguments against it?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:21] Yes, "You say no, no to what? So it's the period that's not working? Is there something else that isn't working for you? Would you prefer another time? Perhaps you'd prefer a video meeting, via Teams for example?"

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:12:31] You booked an appointment with a hospital for a debt collection customer. What made it work?

Marc Pottiez: [00:12:37] First of all, the surprising thing was that I called him on his landline, because there was no access to his direct phone, so he answered, to my great pleasure and satisfaction. But look, here, given that he's a CFO, the services we were looking to offer seemed to interest him, particularly for debt repurchasing. This particular approach appealed to him, so he made an appointment.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:01] What made him accept the appointment? Why did he like it after all?

Marc Pottiez: [00:13:04] The idea of having a company of our size, our looks, our experience and our specificity in his sector of activity meant that the question of a takeover seemed interesting to him to discuss, and that's why he made the appointment.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:24] Beautiful! Thank you for this exchange Marc. We can sum it up with our good old "CCC": Clear, Short, Concise, no need to say too much, just right.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:13:32] And to be fair, you have to understand the person you're talking to. Are these drivers: sympathy, pride, novelty, comfort, money or security? We need to adapt our approach to each individual case.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:13:46] And also according to its profile, the way it works. Is it a person of action, reasoning, relationships, reflection? Is it open or closed? Because if it's closed, you'll have to reassure it first, for example. Well, all these good practices need to be put into practice at a given moment, in the here and now.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:08] Well yes, we don't argue in general, we argue for someone, it's tailor-made.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:13] Indeed, it's the key to the argument. Now, sometimes that person says "No", but a no is not the end, it's the beginning of the counter-argument.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:23] Yes, a no can simply mean "I didn't understand, I have another priority". Or "I'm just scared". It's up to us to decode it. Is this a real objection, a real misunderstanding? Or passive resistance?

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:36] And here again, there's no ready-made speech. We listen, we adjust, we rephrase, we create an exchange, not a recitation. Of course, there are also techniques for counter-arguing, but that's for a future podcast.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:14:49] That's what good telephone argumentation is all about: listening, understanding, adapting, aiming and, above all, the desire to convince without forcing the issue.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:14:58] In short, be strategic, be human and be clear.

Camille de Meeûs: [00:15:01] Thanks for listening, and don't forget, if this episode has inspired you, share it, write it down or, better still, practice arguing like Cicero.

Stéphane Depaepe: [00:15:10] See you soon on PHCom, the business intelligence podcast.